A home for those who love almost everything about The Ticket (1310 AM, 96.7 FM, Dallas-Fort Worth), and who would like to discuss -- respectfully and fondly -- their thoughts on how (and whether) to eliminate the "almost."
Come on, men and women. I have a feeling we’re seeing many new readers here who aren’t used to the (usually) civilized way we conduct discourse around here, resulting in lots of accusations of fake identities, water-carrying, ignorance of one subject area or another, “bias,” poor stewardship by Your Plainsman, MTC in general going down the drain, and the like.
I’ve let a lot of it slide, but I’m going to start deleting stuff that is more interested in getting one up on another Confessor than in making any useful points or arguments. There are ways to disagree without casting personal aspersions. I think I made this point a post or three ago, but perhaps not.
With respect to who is posting as whom and what names they use: There isn’t enough of that to worry about, I can’t police it anyway, and I don’t care.
In fact, almost EVERYTHING is going on behind the scenes, and NO ONE HERE KNOWS WHAT IT IS. An example is today’s suggestion by the lads that they’re going to put up a program on The Dumb Zone.
-- Some think Cumulus screwed up in not conditioning a further extension of the hearing on an extension of the TRO.
-- Some think recent utterances of the lads do not even suggest a new TDZ program today.
-- Some think it’s obvious there’s a settlement.
-- Some think Cumulus has caved.
-- Some think the lads are proceeding (a) in bad faith, or (b) in a tactically risky manner.
-- Any one of these theories may be right, but one thing’s for sure: As of this writing, no one on this site knows.
So before you press PUBLISH, think about it. Just think about it, please, and maybe draft your comment, make yourself a sandwich, and return to your draft. Reread. Consider. Decide.
The decision whether to delete a comment may be very subjective. If it pisses me off this time around, it's gone. What, you haven't transcended a specific rule? Well, one of the rules is, and has always been, that I get to draw the lines in keeping this site a more-or-less friendly place to visit.
And that means I get to be grumpy in aid of that goal.
So long as we're on this side of the veil of ignorance, so to speak, who do the rest of you think most regrets that we've wound up here? And so you're aware of my bias, I'm on Dan & Jake's side here and not a ticket listener (came to them via IJB).
Obviously, the financial stakes of it have the potential to be far more damaging to the boys, but I think Cumulus is probably moreso wishing they hadn't bothered here. My case is as follows:
1. It seems like non-competes are a few months from being relegated to applying in only the rarest of cases, so any message sending CM was hoping to do is probably a finger in the dyke. And even if this doesn't go to the NLRB, some business practices are likely going to change. Plus, the new lineups are set - I'd be surprised if there's much more movement to apply any NCs to in the short term.
2. I also don't think D&J have any interest in going to another radio station, but realize CM may have thought that. This case has made public what producers make and what D&J make, which is of some value to other stations interested in prying someone away.
3. CM has damaged, in the eyes of many, what I understand to be the Ticket's secret sauce. Namely, a special camaraderie between programs and employees and the listeners.
4. Local press has been on the side of the boys, as you'd expect - media loves reporting on media. I won't extrapolate too much on this last part because who knows why they're there, but advertisers on the defense's witness list likely isn't something CM wanted to see.
I could certainly be wrong in some of this given my distance, but, assuming there is a settlement forthcoming (and I do), what does a win even look like for Cumulus here? Stopping some guys from joining a station they didn't want to join anyway? Locking in another few months of powerful non-competes?
Oh, and I'll give my view of where I think this lands based on what I assume both parties want.
Boys get: 1. Podcasts goes forward from the settlement or very shortly after.
Cumulus Media gets: 1. Boys agree that no Ticket advertiser will sponsor the podcast for *lengthy* amount of time. Like, years. 2. Agree not to join any Dallas radio show for a lengthy amount of time. 3. Ironclad non-disparagement with pretty much whatever the Ticket wants. 4. Podcast episodes will not come be released during morning drive / lunchtime / or evening drive hours for a lengthy amount of time.
Well said Pman. No one knows and it is all conjecture.
The choosing sides thing in the comments is bizarre. Most of us want to hear updates and thoughts.
The literary slant in the last thread was entertaining. Waugh, Kingsley Amis and Stendhal fans all showed up. You have a well read audience. Unless as suggested they were all a single person.
So here's my "bias": I liked The Hang Zone, and I'm a very big fan of Jake's. He's a little woke for my taste, but not too bad. I will miss not hearing him on The Ticket, and if he were on another station, I'd probably check him out. Dan, not so much, but I though the two of them together were much better than Bob and Dan. Will likely not be subscribing to the podcast, but I don't subscribe to any podcasts.
I have left jobs for better jobs to the former employer's great unhappiness, but it was my right and in my personal interest to do so, and I respect Dan and Jake's decision to leave for what they perceived as greener pastures. Did they go about it in a professional, risk-avoiding, reputation-enhancing way? No.
Noncompetes are made valid and enforceable by statute in Texas. Texas courts, and federal courts sitting in Texas, enforce them. Dan and Jake thumbed their nose at theirs based on a legal theory (their National Labor Relations Act theory) that has never been accepted anywhere, and that is fairly easily answered. That is to say, fairly easily answered IN MY OPINION. Judges don't always rule in a way that I think is right. So while I think that in the long run, the lads would lose if there were a full hearing on the merits, THEY COULD WIN AND UPEND AMERICAN EMPLOYMENT LAW. Yes, it could happen.
More likely, there will be a settlement and that theory will not have been tested. What will that settlement look like? No one not sitting at that table knows, but it's hard to believe it will feature an immediate resumption of The Dumb Zone.
But, as some here have said -- how else to account for the promised, um, immediate resumptinon of The Dumb Zone? It's a puzzlement, and anyone insisting that it all makes sense and couldn't have come out any other way had better have some inside information they can share.
Cumulus: Has it made missteps? In my opinion, yes. I've listed them elsewhere -- they relate mainly, but not exclusively, to the puzzling delays in seeking to enforce its contracts -- won't repeat that here. Most recently, I'm baffled by any agreement with the mediator to extend the hearing date without extending the TRO. But who knows? Maybe something going on that makes that understandable.
All by way of saying -- as Charles did in wrapping up in his comment: "I certainly could be wrong in some of this."
In the meantime, let's sit back and enjoy the show.
Broad non-disparagement clauses have already been deemed illegal. More likely D&J would agree to not criticize any current/future Cumulus products. But they should be allowed to discuss the terms and conditions of their employment at Cumulus.
Non-competes are NOT going away. If it involves sales, commissions and customers, it won't happen. I have been under several, and left for a competitor. But, I am an engineer, so not like I was going to steel a client. I simply discussed the situation with mgmt and we were good. j
At the same time, I have been cut loose for various reasons, RIF, office closing, etc. In those cases, I was given the opportunity for a severance package, and by signing and cashing the check, I agreed to to compete with known clients, and not to go after other employees.
There may be some changes to the law, but I can't see it going away. Something that big would end up with lobby money behind both sides on The Hill, and that is gonna be a process.
IMHO.
PMan, thank you for providing this outlet. I know it has to be taxing. I hope that we can remain civil, as I have visited almost weekly since MTC started, and really do appreciate the insight. I don't always agree with all views, sometimes even PMan makes me shake my head. But, I respect his take on things, and it always makes me think.
I don't think they'll go away, but I'd suspect there will be a dramatic shakeup below the managerial level and be far more tailored toward stealing trade secrets and (possibly) clients vs. jobs in the same industry. That's the rare cases I intended above. I don't expect fast food hosts or radio hosts or engineers will see them nearly as much if the FTC has its way.
I have to echo KFD in every way. Is Cumulus “evil”? As evil as capitalism is I suppose, but it’s the best we got.
I would never “root” for a corporation (like gamers do in console wars). They have all the power, anything that gives the proletariat more power or say over the direction of their careers is to be commended. The consumer benefits from competition, corporations do not. Workers benefit from more employment opportunities. Corporations do not.
I don’t “blame” the Catman or Dan Bennett (ok maybe Bennett a bit if he directly told hosts not to reveal salaries). Middle Management is, as Dan loves to say, what it is. Cumulus butters their bread. They will defend it vigorously if told to by ATL. I also think those in ATL have zero idea what they have in the uniqueness of The Ticket.
All said, still dig the ticket, still dig D&J. Will I sub their podcast, if it gets past its Pre-K production and adds at least rudimentary video maybe. And even then it’ll be the first podcast/patreon I sub. I’m very cheap.
I am pretty much 100% in line with what P-Man said.
Big BAD Radio fan. Big defender of Dan from day 1. Big Jake fan. Less a fan of the Hang Zone. Not sure why that show never hit home for me.
Not going to subscribe to the podcast because I have never Patreon’d anything & while I listen to too many podcasts, I don’t pay for them.
I still maintain we are months away from the announcement of D&J doing PM drive on the Freak or the Fan. And I believe all this D&J drama is to get around the right of first refusal in their contracts that extend through the noncompete.
Bottom line, I just don’t think either D&J are in the “bet the farm on new media venture” phase of their lives.
Noncompetes suck. Probably should go away for a lot of industries & jobs. Radio broadcaster is probably one of them. Don’t think noncompetes will be going away though & if they do for some, I doubt 6 figure radio guy gets to skate.
I’m sure this is old hat to many, but I never knew until today where “hold on to your butts” comes from.
Sam Jackson’s character says it twice in the original Jurassic Park movie. It’s back in theaters and I just took my kids to it in 3D, and it holds up surprisingly well. I love Jeff Goldblum.
I seriously doubt this is the case to kill non competes but I can dream. :)
D&J going to the Freak is where it gets murky for me on the sorry front. Not in regards to the corporation stuff. Again in my opinion and experince if the Cloud or any company doesn’t want to compete with a former employee than pay said employee enough that they stay. I’m not talking about a living wage D&J both make that but if you don’t want to compete with them than you need to make it worth their while to stay and of you don’t than you clearly don’t think they are going to cost you more money than your already paying them by becoming your competition. The murky part is in regards to their former bunker mates. I’ve left agencies to compete with them eventually. I’m never apologized for it but I never lied about it either. Radio though seems to be a place where everyone lies about everything to everyone all the time. I’m getting the impression that it’s still the shady business it was back in the payola days.
On non legal matters. I have made the Downbeat my go to during breaks in the Musers or segments I don’t really care for. I think it’s much improved over the afternoon version and I’d rather listen to it than the Fan’s morning show. I caught some of B&S going to grab lunch and I just don’t understand their cockroach survivability they are all of Gordo and Dan’s worst aspects with none of the charm or redeeming qualities. I haven’t heard much of the Wolf and Cavanaugh. Still haven’t been able to get with the tickets afternoon line up either. Personally I’d kick Matt to the curb combine Donnie with the other three and let them go for the full five hours.
“People use David and Goliath as a reference to the biblical story to shorthand an unfair fight without remembering that at the end of the story, the little guy is holding the severed head of the big guy”
McClearin and Lewis much improved since Blake's departure. Got nothing against Blake, he was excellent as the whipping boy of The Hang Zone, but on the Invasion he popped on more than TC, and it was too-frequently hostile or condescending.
As far as Donnie and Matt are concerned, it isn't that bad. I'll concede it lacks a certain Tickety quality that it needs to have and I hope it will develop. When I tune in, I don't tune out. Matt needs to get to his points quicker, show drags some.
One thing I noticed: McClearin's voice -- I don't recall it being so rough, the same way Danny B sounded the last several years on The Ticket (and now). Sounds like he's a heavy smoker; don't know if he is, but his formerly buttery voice has taken on quite a bit of gravel.
Sorry Pman...that red does not meet MTC standards. IMHO. Has A.I. steered you in the wrong direction? Hope not. You may not be able to police all the muckraking but one can certainly find a better red. After all, you are the number 1 cop; and I believe love your job.
@Lurker: I couldn't find a public-domain ginger who was wagging her finger in a scolding schoolmarm fashion, which is apparently what I'm having to become.
Rather unfair, but nice one nonetheless, @18 is legal.
LOVING this return to civility. This is what MTC was founded on and is about. It's why I'm a D1P1 Confessor and have never stopped shopping here.
I'm in the boat of thinking Cumulus is like most every large-mega corporation in that it's not evil per se, but isn't a force for good either. I also think non-competes are total bullshit. But I also prefer for people to go about things the right way. I share KDF's uneasiness about the possibility of D&J migrating to The Freak. I don't know how I'd feel if they turn up as The Freak's pm drive show. But we're not there and might never be. Merely thinking aloud.
What could possibly be going on, that the TRO has expired, The Dumb Zone is alive, and we're seeing/hearing nothing, and no further orders of the Court? The brief order cancelling yesterday's hearing promises an order resetting the hearing, but nothing as of a day later.
It is almost impossible to believe that if Cumulus were serious about stopping the podcast that it would have not sought an extension of the TRO in return for kicking the hearing.
But it didn't. The easiest explanation (easiest, that is, next to Cumulus error, which would be such a huge mistake I just can't believe that's what has happened) is that settlement is headed in the direction of Cumulus giving up its effort to stop the podcasts. Cumulus cannot consent to allowing the podcasts to continue and also continue to claim that the podcasts are causing it irreparable damage. Whether they get something in return that is more valuable to them than stopping the podcasts remains to be seen.
A week ago it was advantage: Cumulus.
As of this writing (midday August 30): Advantage, Dan and Jake.
D&J filed a second request for extension to answer or file a 12(b) motion. Interestingly, the motion for extension says that mediation (as of yesterday) is ongoing. This would seem to be quite the marathon mediation, and I'm wondering if it actually means that a mediator's proposal has been given to both sides for consideration.
If mediation -- that is, settlement discussions -- are ongoing, then that, in combination with yesterday's podcast posting and Cumulus's not seeking to extend the TRO, can (almost) only mean that the final settlement, if there is one, will not include limitations on podcasts, at least in their present form.
I think Cumulus genuinely thought they could (and have before, without pro bono attorneys and NLRB helping the other side out) scare their targets with litigation and wait them out until they ran out of money for lawyers. I think once the idea of a big advertiser testifying under oath about why they stopped advertising with CM came into play, plus CM realizing that they would be opening a huge can of worms about non competes which would embolden its on air talent nationwide, this became more about how to do we make this all go away and don't look like we lost. Which is where we are. I still say D&J won't ever be able to discuss it in detail but they also will be able to podcast and won't have crazy legal bills to pay. And I think a lot of P1s now have a pretty bad taste in their mouth about the corporate overlords who run the station.
@ Lloyd, I disagree. Cume sued to enforce contract terms, amongst other things, Jake’s podcast non-compete, and to halt any and all podcasts in the near term. The fact that the pod is back up with Jake attached to it feels like a pretty meaningful L for Atlanta
But wasn't it both Dan and their legal team that stated they didn't want the cutrtain pulled back? That's a lot of conjecture on your part. Ultimatley, you might be correct. And you might not. I do think you're wrong about the listenetr and Cumulus. Perhaps for a very small minority, ok. But for the overwhelming majority of listeners, not a chance. If that were so, they wouldn't be tuning into anything involved with either pro or college sports. If you want a bad guy to go after look no further than those associations, ownerships, snd sponsors. Yet...
&MCC I think you misunderstand or I wasn't clear. I meant if that ends up being the outcome all of this could've been avoided. And that's mostly on Cumulus.
Agree with you in that this is looking like a few weeks of just spinning wheels and accruing legal bills. As always, the lawyers are the real winners in the end
After D+Js early success at getting patreon subscribers, I definitely see some thoughts for them to negotiate to extend the non-compete on terrestrial radio to 12 months and keep the Patreon behind subs only with no free content or any on youtube and no present or former ticket advertisers for 12 months.
That type of agreement could be seen as a compromise that is essentially not competitive compared to the Ticket's business of over the air and Ticket free podcasts supported solely by advertisers.
Put a muzzle on them for the terms of the agreement and about Cumulus forever and that's ballgame.
The only other reason I can think that the continuance order does not continue to enjoin podcasts is as follows: Judge denied the TRO on procedural grounds previously. Despite labels, views this dispute to be one for a preliminary injunction. Therefore not inclined to enjoin anything until there’s been a hearing. Mildly irritated the parties’ agreement on the last continuance included a prohibition on podcasts. Judge may have told the parties this in chambers. Judge may have said no further enjoining anything without either a hearing or a settlement.
I think you may have something there -- the parties didn't want to provoke the court. And I think your thought that the court may have said "I'll give you ten days, but don't come running back to me to continue the TRO without taking evidence" is also notable.
This scenario suggests that the gun was at Cumulus's head to get something done during that week. It didn't get done -- Dan and Jake said "screw ya, we're free," and revved up Dumb Zone again. If so, and if podcasts would have been halted under the settlement structures under discussion, and if Cumulus still cares, they should cut off negotiations and move to schedule the PI hearing NOW.
I agree. Kingston has tweeted enough about both the David v Goliath thing and that there is more NLRB developments coming up that I think the boys are pretty close to getting out of this with almost everything they wanted. Probably a gag order on talking the details on the pod. And really, picking up subs at a steady clip and having little to no interest in radio again (they will end up making almost the same they did at KTCK in a year or two if they keep up the sub rate they are at and expand into national sports stories to gain more non DFW subs) it seems like everyone is happy. Especially the lawyers who billed CM for their time during all this.
@ KTCK Sanger, I am not talking about Kingston because I don’t follow Kingston. I also caution anyone celebrating the cryptic tweets of an attorney talking about active litigation.
Also, if I may add, Kingston has other clients and other active cases.
BREAKING: Court has set date for (1) hearing on the TRO/preliminary injunction motion, and (2) Dan and Jake to answer to September 15 at 9:30.
I don't have any profound reaction to this, except that the lads' motion to extend time to answer or otherwise plead did not ask the court to set a hearing date, although suggested that the date to answer be the later of December 12 or any reset date.
The court obviously wants to get this thing off the dime, so she set a date on her own motion, as we mouthpieces say.
That was wild to hear that they are back in the rankings on Patreon. I also looked at the subscriber count, engagement and comments that my favorite Patreon podcast gets and DZ is already set to outpace them. And that podcast is popular enough to tour the country and play pretty decent sized venues. I think the DZ has set a pretty impressive pace as far as podcast success goes. Anecdotally, one of my other favorite podcasts just crossed the threshold on Patreon where they're making about $60-75k a month and hired three full time producers/engineers/interns. They pay them a good salary and give everyone full bennies. I hope that is what is in DZ's future too.
Wondering without evidence whether this fracas got started almost inadvertently. Cumulus in-house mid-level legal thought it looked like a typical talent dispute and reflexively threw its lawyers at it without really understanding the stakes. Lawyers responded without much urgency or enthusiasm themselves. The general counsel then sees lawyer dollars flying out the door and says what the hell and pulls the plug. Cumulus lawyers now scrambling to save something and shut this mother down and getting rid of this unfair labor practice charge without caving entirely.
Cumulus not blazing into court the minute the lads fired up The Dumb Zone -- I'm not coming up with a scenario that makes any sense other than near-capitulation.
But, as I've said above somewhere: No one knows anything.
@ Plainsman - It's an interesting theory and goes hand in hand with one of the items we've all been arguing about in that "The Ticket" is so unique from the rest of the Cumulus cloud but they're trying to treat it otherwise.
Having been in house at big companies, I will say there are certain things at every company that will always be litigated. I imagine noncompetes in radio are one of those things across the industry; not just Cumulus. Not 100% sure Bennett or Cat are able to stop it if they wanted to. (I doubt they wanted to). The corp view is likely these have to be enforced all the time or the employees will start to think we will never enforce them.
Quite true, but that's nothing Cumulus had any control over. My point was that Cumulus just sort of cruised on autopilot into prosecuting as though it was going to be something routine, something every employer just has to go through.
If the NLRB filings were all Cumulus had to worry about -- it's not nothing, but it's pretty narrow, limited to a couple of fact issues and the big unprecedented legal issue (are noncompetes at their level even legal under the NLRA?). Also, the NLRB defense, at least initially, is not nearly as complex or expensive as a lawsuit. In fact, if Cumulus had not sought to enforce the restrictive covenants, query whether the lads would have standing to challenge the covenants at all, having suffered no restrictions. The unfair labor practice case would then pretty much be limited to Dan Bennett's ill-advised statements not to discuss salaries. Again -- it's not nothing, but it's not much.
But Cumulus's/CU lawyers' half-hearted prosecution at the outset ended up being expensive without being effective, and (my ass is speculating) someone upstairs at Cumulus eventually tumbled to the fact that they were paying two big-deal law firms for pretty much zero benefit, not to mention armchair lawyers at The Source for Responsible Ticket Journalism cluck-clucking over its missteps.
Interesting that the blame all goes to Cumulus lawyers and no credit is given to the Dumb Zone Legal Dream Team. But understandable since the overwhelming narrative at the outset was that D&J had been duped by overzealous lawyers who were way out of their depth.
What TDZ did was the equivalent of throwing deep down the middle on 3rd and 18 and gaining 40 yards... In that scenario, we ALWAYS blame the defense...
TDZ: No podcast, no deal
Cumulus: No deal.
TDZ: Okay, we're going to podcast
Cumulus: You have a non-compete
TDZ: NLRB, podcast
Cumulus: We're filing in federal court [gets tie stuck in the paper shredder, farts and falls down]
Court: No emergency relief, Hearing...
TDZ: Agreed order! Please, no hearing.
Court: Fine. Mediation - y'all should probably sort this out be be ready for battle next time - fix this $#-+ Rich... I mean, Cumulus...
Cumulus: [still removing tie from shredder] Ok!
Like I said a few days ago, if D&J saved their money for a rainy day, and were willing to risk extending the sit-out period and pay attorneys fees over time, this was a somewhat risk-free venture... The Cloud's somewhat incompetent/indecisive lawyering appears to be the proximate cause of how we got to a place where the TDZ is back "on the air" Surely someone in Atlanta, upon hearing that D&J's negotiations were going sideways, at least started thinking about their arguments in court as to the harm of the podcasts and why the non-compete should be enforced. I bet The Cloud's general counsel is going to have a few steak dinners courtesy of several law firm partners trying to get The Cloud's legal business...
In my opinion, the best I think you can say about TDZ is that fortune favors the brave... This narrative going on that we're all in the tank for The Cloud... No, I just hate watching highly capitalized institutions and lawyers making 10x my salary perform this poorly....
@Chief C'mon man! Let's not get that started again.
@Just Wondering As of this moment there has been no resolution, in any way. Why don't we wait until there is one before the gotcha games/told ya so's/oh I thought ___/and see how wrong you were's begin. It could very well be the case that Dan and Jake and their legal team make history and it could also very well be the case that they end up smacked down. Ditto on the latter with respect to Cumulus. Or the outcome could be, at the end of the day, as if none of this ever happened -- TDZ continues on as a pod, the n.c. stands for 6 months as related to working for a competitor, and both parties agree to keep mum.
I know the term “Dream Team” gets thrown around in jest, and quite a few jabs have been thrown at both PK and MB on here regarding their legal chops, but it’s looking like it’s not a bad strategy.
We all assume Dan and Jake have had something in the works for a while. From lining up contracts to expire at the same time, to doing monthly segments on non-compete clauses. Maybe they were scouting Cumulus’ response to similar lawsuits and seeing where they were weak.
They often play dumb on the air (or podcast) but it’s seeming more and more like they had this planned out. From things like potentially using Cumulus IP. Maybe they knew the strategy Cumulus would take. Then, counter punch with your own legal strategy, knowing that Cumulus would be flat footed and slow to respond.
Do all of this to create as much of a headache for corporate that someone says “Make this go away”.
David and Goliath has been brought up before, but I don’t often hear people mention that in this case. Goliath’s stock price is at $4.64 and is down just over 17% in the last month.
If I’m a C-Suite member that has to answer to the board of a company that is losing money, I’m making this headache go away TODAY, because some of them may not see next year if the stock keeps going down.
Meanwhile D&J have added nearly 200 new subscribers in last few days as it becomes clear that their strategy will rule the day. Dan even mentioned that it is amazing that when they do pods the subscriptions go up and when they dont do any people quit.
It might "rule the day." To soon to tell. I'm in no way predicting anything. Nor do I have any inside info or expertise. But sometimes situations seem to look one way, inevitably so, only to turn out completely different. Just as I thought the early days notion of a "slam dunk" for Cumulus was the logical outcome wasn't set in stone, so too do I think the idea of a victory lap for Dan, Jake and the Legal Dream Team is premature.
One more thing. The pervading thinking on the business of content creation seems to be that somehow the creator has broken free from the evils of corporatism and predator capitalism. That is superficial analysis. In its not so long ago nascency this was somewhat true. No longer is this the case. This ranges across all major platforms (including Patreon). The monetization of the platform and the demands/rule/costs put on its creators increases now with damn near each quarter. This includes ever increasing soft and at times not so soft forms of censorship, data sharing, and other invasive practices/rules (including what's beginning to come online in the form of biometrics by way of access). All of this will exponentially increase as the platforms grow, are bought out by larger corporations, and in some cases (e.g., Facebook, et al.) will themselves become large corporations. The tech world has already shown that while it promises an egalitarian, equitable modus, it rarely if ever engages in praxis.
The one thing I truly hope that doesn't happen as a result of all this is that the close relationships between Dan and Jake and the rest of The Ticket bunch have cultivarted over the years are sullied if not flat out broken (if it already hasn't occurred in some cases). That would be a shame. Because let's say The Dumb Zone is allowed to continue on unabated (or even if the non-compete is enforced), it would be great to hear Ticket guys go on the pod. This would especially be the case when one or two or all of The Musers retire. Imagine the gold you'd get out of Retirement George and Dan exchanges.
Go ahead and delete Pman but you need to listen to Phillip Kingston's pod Loserville ASAP. He discusses the case and basically claims to have the ear and a direct line to the GC for the NLRB who he claims is a Bulldog. She wants to take this case over and knows of Dan and Jake. If you listen to Kingston you will see that they strongly believe that Cumulus is going down legally and called the Cumulus GC a buffoon.
I highly doubt Dan and Jake want to spend years, and trust me it will be years, in a legal battle. Much less one that could upend their friends' livelihoods. Including the ones who they claim to be fighting for in the first place.
And yes, I did listen to the pod. Kingston is rather unlikeable. Does that mean he's wrong or a poor lawyer, no. But neither does it mean he isn't. Whatever he is, he's definitely one thirsty dude. My guess is that thankfully for Dan and Jake, he's probably not actually running the show.
The videos and broadcast seemed like there was a good amount of people there, not sure though. Seems like every ticket event has the social media crowd going "This event sucks now," for like the last 5+ years lol.
There’s a podcast called “lawyers behaving badly” that discuss TDZ in their latest episode. Not because of badly behaving lawyers, more because one of the hosts is a huge P1. She does fault the Cumulus lawyers for missteps as discussed here, but they dig into the NLRB stuff. Her point, it’s a radical reading for creative talent like jocks to not be bound by non competes, and most importantly, even if they win here, it goes to an incredibly conservative appeals court (the 5th) who is EXTREMELY business friendly. And if by some remote chance they win at the 5th, it goes to a conservative Supreme Court. The other co host flatly states if you’re trying to push a test case, this is the wrong place to do it. C
And not to doubt Anon not Anin above, or Kingston, but the Tuesday hearing was postponed at the request of both parties to give mediation more time. If you’re so convinced this is a done deal w the NLRB, why bother negotiating at all? Or maybe that’s a big old bluff. “Hey cumulus lawyers, give us what we want now and we’ll settle, otherwise the NLRB will swoop in and kill all your non competes everywhere”. C
And to C's last words....This is exactly how DnJ have been misled by a couple of extremely pub hungry lawyers into believing they're doing all their former colleagues a favor, that they'll be thanked for it, everyone will be even better friends, and they'll go down in the annals of worker's rights as heroes. Jake said all but the last thing when on The Mom Game pod. I 100% believe DnJ's hearts are n the right place. I also believe 100% the hearts of those they're involved with are not.
The appearance of Brian Jorgensen of Jones Day in Dallas casts an entirely new light on matters. I've got no kick against Cumulus's current lawyers, but Jones Day is one of the finest litigation and transactional firms in the United States -- and the costliest. Would not stun me if they'll be charging Cumulus four figs an hour -- and that's just for one lawyer. Don't know Mr. Jorgensen, but he appears very well-qualified for a matter like this, and he was a star at Texas Tech Law School.
But here's the point: You don't hire Jones Day because you're happy with the lawyers you have. This site has listed what it (and some Confessors) perceived as technical and strategic errors by the Atlanta and Dallas firms, but it acknowledged the possibility that this was the way that Cumulus wanted to handle matters -- put things off, baby steps, hoping the thing would resolve or go away, jab SD+J on the cheap. Well, maybe it did.
But -- and there is always the danger that I'm reading too much into this, but it's what I DO -- it seems to have changed its mind.
And you don't hire Jones Day to negotiate a give-up.
And you might hire Jones Day if you think your current legal team may not have the horses to resist the exotic but interesting NLRA theories.
And you might just hire Jones Day to get a fresh start with this judge, with whom the current legal team got off on the wrong foot.
Looks like Cumulus may be going back to court, see if it can right this listing vessel.
As I said above, sometimes appearances are superficial and have no bearing on final outcomes. Other than to serve as reminders of once again judging books by their covers. In this case, apply it to both parties. To toss in one last cliche, right now it's anyone's game.
Prediction: Mediation is over, at least this tranche of it.
Guess: The lads' lawyers were only using it as a stall to have the TRO expire without having a hearing to brief and prepare for and never intended to settle.
Guess: Cumulus did NOT intend to give up on the podcast issue or other restrictive covenants, but clung to the hope that there could be a cheap settlement -- and it didn't want an expensive hearing, either.
Guess: Someone in Atlanta got fed the f up and decided to get some pitching in there.
Again -- a lot to read into a new attorney appearing for a party. Cumulus could fold tomorrow. But it's not smelling that way.
Not to bring that bs trope up again, but if a boot was steeled toed it might be named Brian Jorgensen. Guarantee you Kingston's public statements will henceforth be far more measured. He migjt've been at least somewhat correct in calling Cumulus's GC a clown show. eThat ended, decisively so, today. This is going to be fascinating to watch unfold. I agree with Plainsman in that it looks like both parties want to go to trial.
It's his site, so there you go. Out of curiosity, why does his Smilin' Dan nickname bother you? Why care?
The attachment some have to Dan and Jake is flat out cringe. It's cultish. I get it, they had a good show. In my opinion, and that's all it is, the show wasn't as good as BaD. But a solid show nonetheless. Yet this, as they say, ride or die attitude that was first affixed to Sirois and now to Dan and Jake and anything/anyone adjacent to them is just plain weird.
Morondog, the above isn't aimed solely at you. Indeed, it's not directly aimed at you. It's merely an observation of a headscratcher phenomenon.
While I am obviously a fan of the Smiling One and Jake, I’m more offended by the attachment to an unfunny, not-at-all-clever bit than I am offended out of some attachment to two radio hosts. In my mind it’s akin to folks, even the smiliest of all known Dans, saying “Aggy” as some sort of disparagement to Texas A&M. Either way, not a huge deal, but it was silly that the comment was deleted.
As a Ticket aside - - I'm giving the midday makeover a Month Pass - -lets get into football season & see how the segments go. Also - 10-3 on the Ticket is still alot better than another dial has to offer in that timeframe.
Good luck to them DMZ lads - they definitely took a major chance and current pod numbers suggest a good call. But BUT - (still in the camp of them joining 97.1 afternoon drive when they are able and playing the No Other Choice card...)
So you want someone making a comment to start naming names, calling individuals out? There are dozens upon dozens of comments here alone that evince the zeal of the fanboys. Couple that with reddit and you have a healthy faction.
No, I just think it's interesting how your perceiving apparently a fair amount of comments here as cultish while I can't remember the last one I've seen which came across that way. Perception is reality I guess
Most times, when told they have a drinking problem, an alcoholic is increduluous--no matter how obvious it is to everyone else. The alcoholic might perceive themselves as being fine, and to not have an issue. And yes, that is their self constructed reality based on their perceived, subjective understanding. However, objectively they are in the nascent stage of liver failure and if they don't stop drinking, at best a tranfer is in order, at worst and most likely, they will be dead in 6 months. Which case is "more real"?
Come on, men and women. I have a feeling we’re seeing many new readers here who aren’t used to the (usually) civilized way we conduct discourse around here, resulting in lots of accusations of fake identities, water-carrying, ignorance of one subject area or another, “bias,” poor stewardship by Your Plainsman, MTC in general going down the drain, and the like.
ReplyDeleteI’ve let a lot of it slide, but I’m going to start deleting stuff that is more interested in getting one up on another Confessor than in making any useful points or arguments. There are ways to disagree without casting personal aspersions. I think I made this point a post or three ago, but perhaps not.
With respect to who is posting as whom and what names they use: There isn’t enough of that to worry about, I can’t police it anyway, and I don’t care.
In fact, almost EVERYTHING is going on behind the scenes, and NO ONE HERE KNOWS WHAT IT IS. An example is today’s suggestion by the lads that they’re going to put up a program on The Dumb Zone.
-- Some think Cumulus screwed up in not conditioning a further extension of the hearing on an extension of the TRO.
-- Some think recent utterances of the lads do not even suggest a new TDZ program today.
-- Some think it’s obvious there’s a settlement.
-- Some think Cumulus has caved.
-- Some think the lads are proceeding (a) in bad faith, or (b) in a tactically risky manner.
-- Any one of these theories may be right, but one thing’s for sure: As of this writing, no one on this site knows.
So before you press PUBLISH, think about it. Just think about it, please, and maybe draft your comment, make yourself a sandwich, and return to your draft. Reread. Consider. Decide.
And please recall:
ReplyDeleteThe decision whether to delete a comment may be very subjective. If it pisses me off this time around, it's gone. What, you haven't transcended a specific rule? Well, one of the rules is, and has always been, that I get to draw the lines in keeping this site a more-or-less friendly place to visit.
And that means I get to be grumpy in aid of that goal.
Not having a sandwich, not going to the range.
ReplyDeleteI myself am going to have a slice of pizza.
Hear, hear.
ReplyDeleteSo long as we're on this side of the veil of ignorance, so to speak, who do the rest of you think most regrets that we've wound up here? And so you're aware of my bias, I'm on Dan & Jake's side here and not a ticket listener (came to them via IJB).
Obviously, the financial stakes of it have the potential to be far more damaging to the boys, but I think Cumulus is probably moreso wishing they hadn't bothered here. My case is as follows:
1. It seems like non-competes are a few months from being relegated to applying in only the rarest of cases, so any message sending CM was hoping to do is probably a finger in the dyke. And even if this doesn't go to the NLRB, some business practices are likely going to change. Plus, the new lineups are set - I'd be surprised if there's much more movement to apply any NCs to in the short term.
2. I also don't think D&J have any interest in going to another radio station, but realize CM may have thought that. This case has made public what producers make and what D&J make, which is of some value to other stations interested in prying someone away.
3. CM has damaged, in the eyes of many, what I understand to be the Ticket's secret sauce. Namely, a special camaraderie between programs and employees and the listeners.
4. Local press has been on the side of the boys, as you'd expect - media loves reporting on media. I won't extrapolate too much on this last part because who knows why they're there, but advertisers on the defense's witness list likely isn't something CM wanted to see.
I could certainly be wrong in some of this given my distance, but, assuming there is a settlement forthcoming (and I do), what does a win even look like for Cumulus here? Stopping some guys from joining a station they didn't want to join anyway? Locking in another few months of powerful non-competes?
@KTDK Sanger:
ReplyDeleteI like pizza, too.
Oh, and I'll give my view of where I think this lands based on what I assume both parties want.
ReplyDeleteBoys get:
1. Podcasts goes forward from the settlement or very shortly after.
Cumulus Media gets:
1. Boys agree that no Ticket advertiser will sponsor the podcast for *lengthy* amount of time. Like, years.
2. Agree not to join any Dallas radio show for a lengthy amount of time.
3. Ironclad non-disparagement with pretty much whatever the Ticket wants.
4. Podcast episodes will not come be released during morning drive / lunchtime / or evening drive hours for a lengthy amount of time.
Well said Pman. No one knows and it is all conjecture.
ReplyDeleteThe choosing sides thing in the comments is bizarre. Most of us want to hear updates and thoughts.
The literary slant in the last thread was entertaining. Waugh, Kingsley Amis and Stendhal fans all showed up. You have a well read audience. Unless as suggested they were all a single person.
#notonreddit
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ReplyDelete@Charles:
ReplyDeleteSo here's my "bias": I liked The Hang Zone, and I'm a very big fan of Jake's. He's a little woke for my taste, but not too bad. I will miss not hearing him on The Ticket, and if he were on another station, I'd probably check him out. Dan, not so much, but I though the two of them together were much better than Bob and Dan. Will likely not be subscribing to the podcast, but I don't subscribe to any podcasts.
I have left jobs for better jobs to the former employer's great unhappiness, but it was my right and in my personal interest to do so, and I respect Dan and Jake's decision to leave for what they perceived as greener pastures. Did they go about it in a professional, risk-avoiding, reputation-enhancing way? No.
Noncompetes are made valid and enforceable by statute in Texas. Texas courts, and federal courts sitting in Texas, enforce them. Dan and Jake thumbed their nose at theirs based on a legal theory (their National Labor Relations Act theory) that has never been accepted anywhere, and that is fairly easily answered. That is to say, fairly easily answered IN MY OPINION. Judges don't always rule in a way that I think is right. So while I think that in the long run, the lads would lose if there were a full hearing on the merits, THEY COULD WIN AND UPEND AMERICAN EMPLOYMENT LAW. Yes, it could happen.
More likely, there will be a settlement and that theory will not have been tested. What will that settlement look like? No one not sitting at that table knows, but it's hard to believe it will feature an immediate resumption of The Dumb Zone.
But, as some here have said -- how else to account for the promised, um, immediate resumptinon of The Dumb Zone? It's a puzzlement, and anyone insisting that it all makes sense and couldn't have come out any other way had better have some inside information they can share.
Cumulus: Has it made missteps? In my opinion, yes. I've listed them elsewhere -- they relate mainly, but not exclusively, to the puzzling delays in seeking to enforce its contracts -- won't repeat that here. Most recently, I'm baffled by any agreement with the mediator to extend the hearing date without extending the TRO. But who knows? Maybe something going on that makes that understandable.
All by way of saying -- as Charles did in wrapping up in his comment: "I certainly could be wrong in some of this."
In the meantime, let's sit back and enjoy the show.
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ReplyDeleteBroad non-disparagement clauses have already been deemed illegal. More likely D&J would agree to not criticize any current/future Cumulus products. But they should be allowed to discuss the terms and conditions of their employment at Cumulus.
ReplyDeleteNon-competes are NOT going away. If it involves sales, commissions and customers, it won't happen. I have been under several, and left for a competitor. But, I am an engineer, so not like I was going to steel a client. I simply discussed the situation with mgmt and we were good. j
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, I have been cut loose for various reasons, RIF, office closing, etc. In those cases, I was given the opportunity for a severance package, and by signing and cashing the check, I agreed to to compete with known clients, and not to go after other employees.
There may be some changes to the law, but I can't see it going away. Something that big would end up with lobby money behind both sides on The Hill, and that is gonna be a process.
IMHO.
PMan, thank you for providing this outlet. I know it has to be taxing. I hope that we can remain civil, as I have visited almost weekly since MTC started, and really do appreciate the insight. I don't always agree with all views, sometimes even PMan makes me shake my head. But, I respect his take on things, and it always makes me think.
@Scott
ReplyDeleteI don't think they'll go away, but I'd suspect there will be a dramatic shakeup below the managerial level and be far more tailored toward stealing trade secrets and (possibly) clients vs. jobs in the same industry. That's the rare cases I intended above. I don't expect fast food hosts or radio hosts or engineers will see them nearly as much if the FTC has its way.
New DZ episode is up. Listening now. Will report back later.
ReplyDeleteNew Dumb Zone just dropped
ReplyDeleteDan says they’re not allowed to talk about what’s been going on but they are allowed to podcast.
ReplyDeleteListening to the whole episode but I suspect that will be the only time it’s mentioned.
I have to echo KFD in every way. Is Cumulus “evil”? As evil as capitalism is I suppose, but it’s the best we got.
ReplyDeleteI would never “root” for a corporation (like gamers do in console wars). They have all the power, anything that gives the proletariat more power or say over the direction of their careers is to be commended. The consumer benefits from competition, corporations do not. Workers benefit from more employment opportunities. Corporations do not.
I don’t “blame” the Catman or Dan Bennett (ok maybe Bennett a bit if he directly told hosts not to reveal salaries). Middle Management is, as Dan loves to say, what it is. Cumulus butters their bread. They will defend it vigorously if told to by ATL. I also think those in ATL have zero idea what they have in the uniqueness of The Ticket.
All said, still dig the ticket, still dig D&J. Will I sub their podcast, if it gets past its Pre-K production and adds at least rudimentary video maybe. And even then it’ll be the first podcast/patreon I sub. I’m very cheap.
RATM.
I am pretty much 100% in line with what P-Man said.
ReplyDeleteBig BAD Radio fan. Big defender of Dan from day 1. Big Jake fan. Less a fan of the Hang Zone. Not sure why that show never hit home for me.
Not going to subscribe to the podcast because I have never Patreon’d anything & while I listen to too many podcasts, I don’t pay for them.
I still maintain we are months away from the announcement of D&J doing PM drive on the Freak or the Fan. And I believe all this D&J drama is to get around the right of first refusal in their contracts that extend through the noncompete.
Bottom line, I just don’t think either D&J are in the “bet the farm on new media venture” phase of their lives.
Noncompetes suck. Probably should go away for a lot of industries & jobs. Radio broadcaster is probably one of them. Don’t think noncompetes will be going away though & if they do for some, I doubt 6 figure radio guy gets to skate.
I’m sure this is old hat to many, but I never knew until today where “hold on to your butts” comes from.
ReplyDeleteSam Jackson’s character says it twice in the original Jurassic Park movie. It’s back in theaters and I just took my kids to it in 3D, and it holds up surprisingly well. I love Jeff Goldblum.
I seriously doubt this is the case to kill non competes but I can dream. :)
ReplyDeleteD&J going to the Freak is where it gets murky for me on the sorry front. Not in regards to the corporation stuff. Again in my opinion and experince if the Cloud or any company doesn’t want to compete with a former employee than pay said employee enough that they stay. I’m not talking about a living wage D&J both make that but if you don’t want to compete with them than you need to make it worth their while to stay and of you don’t than you clearly don’t think they are going to cost you more money than your already paying them by becoming your competition. The murky part is in regards to their former bunker mates. I’ve left agencies to compete with them eventually. I’m never apologized for it but I never lied about it either. Radio though seems to be a place where everyone lies about everything to everyone all the time. I’m getting the impression that it’s still the shady business it was back in the payola days.
On non legal matters. I have made the Downbeat my go to during breaks in the Musers or segments I don’t really care for. I think it’s much improved over the afternoon version and I’d rather listen to it than the Fan’s morning show. I caught some of B&S going to grab lunch and I just don’t understand their cockroach survivability they are all of Gordo and Dan’s worst aspects with none of the charm or redeeming qualities. I haven’t heard much of the Wolf and Cavanaugh. Still haven’t been able to get with the tickets afternoon line up either. Personally I’d kick Matt to the curb combine Donnie with the other three and let them go for the full five hours.
Colo P1
ReplyDeleteIt’s awesome still.
“People use David and Goliath as a reference to the biblical story to shorthand an unfair fight without remembering that at the end of the story, the little guy is holding the severed head of the big guy”
ReplyDelete—PK
KDF,
ReplyDeleteJettisoning Matt (good dude I’m sure) and let Donnie, Sean, Mino, and Monty go the five hours. Matt B or DJ producing. Yes please.
I get stability in set hour block, but Donnie LOVES doing shows with the JV and they him. It’s shown for months. Monty and Donnie is a dream of mine.
ReplyDeleteColorado P1 -
ReplyDeleteHe also says it in King Kong when the helicopter is crash landing
McClearin and Lewis much improved since Blake's departure. Got nothing against Blake, he was excellent as the whipping boy of The Hang Zone, but on the Invasion he popped on more than TC, and it was too-frequently hostile or condescending.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Donnie and Matt are concerned, it isn't that bad. I'll concede it lacks a certain Tickety quality that it needs to have and I hope it will develop. When I tune in, I don't tune out. Matt needs to get to his points quicker, show drags some.
One thing I noticed: McClearin's voice -- I don't recall it being so rough, the same way Danny B sounded the last several years on The Ticket (and now). Sounds like he's a heavy smoker; don't know if he is, but his formerly buttery voice has taken on quite a bit of gravel.
As everyone knows he’s been hangin’ around proms a little bit
ReplyDeleteSorry Pman...that red does not meet MTC standards. IMHO. Has A.I. steered you in the wrong direction? Hope not. You may not be able to police all the muckraking but one can certainly find a better red. After all, you are the number 1 cop; and I believe love your job.
ReplyDelete@Lurker: I couldn't find a public-domain ginger who was wagging her finger in a scolding schoolmarm fashion, which is apparently what I'm having to become.
ReplyDeleteBut: Fair point taken.
Rather unfair, but nice one nonetheless, @18 is legal.
ReplyDeleteLOVING this return to civility. This is what MTC was founded on and is about. It's why I'm a D1P1 Confessor and have never stopped shopping here.
I'm in the boat of thinking Cumulus is like most every large-mega corporation in that it's not evil per se, but isn't a force for good either. I also think non-competes are total bullshit. But I also prefer for people to go about things the right way. I share KDF's uneasiness about the possibility of D&J migrating to The Freak. I don't know how I'd feel if they turn up as The Freak's pm drive show. But we're not there and might never be. Merely thinking aloud.
Anyone notice how frequently the Ticket now advertises its own podcasts? A lot of lessons get learned in litigation.
ReplyDelete@Friendly Reporter:
ReplyDeleteI have noticed that, and noticed as well that it began coincident with the start of this litigation.
What could possibly be going on, that the TRO has expired, The Dumb Zone is alive,
ReplyDeleteand we're seeing/hearing nothing, and no further orders of the Court? The brief order cancelling yesterday's hearing promises an order resetting the hearing, but nothing as of a day later.
It is almost impossible to believe that if Cumulus were serious about stopping the podcast that it would have not sought an extension of the TRO in return for kicking the hearing.
But it didn't. The easiest explanation (easiest, that is, next to Cumulus error, which would be such a huge mistake I just can't believe that's what has happened) is that settlement is headed in the direction of Cumulus giving up its effort to stop the podcasts. Cumulus cannot consent to allowing the podcasts to continue and also continue to claim that the podcasts are causing it irreparable damage. Whether they get something in return that is more valuable to them than stopping the podcasts remains to be seen.
A week ago it was advantage: Cumulus.
As of this writing (midday August 30): Advantage, Dan and Jake.
D&J filed a second request for extension to answer or file a 12(b) motion. Interestingly, the motion for extension says that mediation (as of yesterday) is ongoing. This would seem to be quite the marathon mediation, and I'm wondering if it actually means that a mediator's proposal has been given to both sides for consideration.
ReplyDelete@Friendly Reporter:
ReplyDeleteThank you.
If mediation -- that is, settlement discussions -- are ongoing, then that, in combination with yesterday's podcast posting and Cumulus's not seeking to extend the TRO, can (almost) only mean that the final settlement, if there is one, will not include limitations on podcasts, at least in their present form.
Advantage, Dan and Jake.
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ReplyDeleteWhy do I get the feeling this has been all for naught? That in the end, D&J sit out the nc and continue to pod.
ReplyDeleteI think Cumulus genuinely thought they could (and have before, without pro bono attorneys and NLRB helping the other side out) scare their targets with litigation and wait them out until they ran out of money for lawyers. I think once the idea of a big advertiser testifying under oath about why they stopped advertising with CM came into play, plus CM realizing that they would be opening a huge can of worms about non competes which would embolden its on air talent nationwide, this became more about how to do we make this all go away and don't look like we lost. Which is where we are. I still say D&J won't ever be able to discuss it in detail but they also will be able to podcast and won't have crazy legal bills to pay. And I think a lot of P1s now have a pretty bad taste in their mouth about the corporate overlords who run the station.
ReplyDelete@ Lloyd, I disagree. Cume sued to enforce contract terms, amongst other things, Jake’s podcast non-compete, and to halt any and all podcasts in the near term. The fact that the pod is back up with Jake attached to it feels like a pretty meaningful L for Atlanta
ReplyDeleteBut wasn't it both Dan and their legal team that stated they didn't want the cutrtain pulled back? That's a lot of conjecture on your part. Ultimatley, you might be correct. And you might not. I do think you're wrong about the listenetr and Cumulus. Perhaps for a very small minority, ok. But for the overwhelming majority of listeners, not a chance. If that were so, they wouldn't be tuning into anything involved with either pro or college sports. If you want a bad guy to go after look no further than those associations, ownerships, snd sponsors. Yet...
ReplyDelete&MCC
ReplyDeleteI think you misunderstand or I wasn't clear. I meant if that ends up being the outcome all of this could've been avoided. And that's mostly on Cumulus.
Agree with you in that this is looking like a few weeks of just spinning wheels and accruing legal bills. As always, the lawyers are the real winners in the end
DeleteAfter D+Js early success at getting patreon subscribers, I definitely see some thoughts for them to negotiate to extend the non-compete on terrestrial radio to 12 months and keep the Patreon behind subs only with no free content or any on youtube and no present or former ticket advertisers for 12 months.
ReplyDeleteThat type of agreement could be seen as a compromise that is essentially not competitive compared to the Ticket's business of over the air and Ticket free podcasts supported solely by advertisers.
Put a muzzle on them for the terms of the agreement and about Cumulus forever and that's ballgame.
The only other reason I can think that the continuance order does not continue to enjoin podcasts is as follows:
ReplyDeleteJudge denied the TRO on procedural grounds previously. Despite labels, views this dispute to be one for a preliminary injunction. Therefore not inclined to enjoin anything until there’s been a hearing. Mildly irritated the parties’ agreement on the last continuance included a prohibition on podcasts. Judge may have told the parties this in chambers. Judge may have said no further enjoining anything without either a hearing or a settlement.
I dunno. Maybe. But probably not.
I have a pretty bad taste in my mouth about any corporate overlords who run anything at all.
ReplyDeleteOnly fools and horses…
@In-House,
ReplyDeleteI think you may have something there -- the parties didn't want to provoke the court. And I think your thought that the court may have said "I'll give you ten days, but don't come running back to me to continue the TRO without taking evidence" is also notable.
This scenario suggests that the gun was at Cumulus's head to get something done during that week. It didn't get done -- Dan and Jake said "screw ya, we're free," and revved up Dumb Zone again. If so, and if podcasts would have been halted under the settlement structures under discussion, and if Cumulus still cares, they should cut off negotiations and move to schedule the PI hearing NOW.
If, if, if.
I think their lawyer’s post on X pretty much indicated a big W for Dan and Jake here. Not sure why more here aren’t discussing it
ReplyDelete@KTDK Sanger
ReplyDeleteI agree. Kingston has tweeted enough about both the David v Goliath thing and that there is more NLRB developments coming up that I think the boys are pretty close to getting out of this with almost everything they wanted. Probably a gag order on talking the details on the pod. And really, picking up subs at a steady clip and having little to no interest in radio again (they will end up making almost the same they did at KTCK in a year or two if they keep up the sub rate they are at and expand into national sports stories to gain more non DFW subs) it seems like everyone is happy. Especially the lawyers who billed CM for their time during all this.
@ KTCK Sanger, I am not talking about Kingston because I don’t follow Kingston. I also caution anyone celebrating the cryptic tweets of an attorney talking about active litigation.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if I may add, Kingston has other clients and other active cases.
New DZ just dropped
ReplyDeleteBREAKING: Court has set date for (1) hearing on the TRO/preliminary injunction motion, and (2) Dan and Jake to answer to September 15 at 9:30.
ReplyDeleteI don't have any profound reaction to this, except that the lads' motion to extend time to answer or otherwise plead did not ask the court to set a hearing date, although suggested that the date to answer be the later of December 12 or any reset date.
The court obviously wants to get this thing off the dime, so she set a date on her own motion, as we mouthpieces say.
More likely as not a slip of the tongue, but Dan referenced the legal team in the past tense on today’s podcast, multiple times.
ReplyDeleteDumb Zone back at all time high patron count
ReplyDelete@KDTK Sanger
ReplyDeleteThat was wild to hear that they are back in the rankings on Patreon. I also looked at the subscriber count, engagement and comments that my favorite Patreon podcast gets and DZ is already set to outpace them. And that podcast is popular enough to tour the country and play pretty decent sized venues. I think the DZ has set a pretty impressive pace as far as podcast success goes. Anecdotally, one of my other favorite podcasts just crossed the threshold on Patreon where they're making about $60-75k a month and hired three full time producers/engineers/interns. They pay them a good salary and give everyone full bennies. I hope that is what is in DZ's future too.
And no response from Cumulus. And no settlement. And no emergency motion and too late, probably, since the court has already set another hearing date.
ReplyDeleteWondering without evidence whether this fracas got started almost inadvertently. Cumulus in-house mid-level legal thought it looked like a typical talent dispute and reflexively threw its lawyers at it without really understanding the stakes. Lawyers responded without much urgency or enthusiasm themselves. The general counsel then sees lawyer dollars flying out the door and says what the hell and pulls the plug. Cumulus lawyers now scrambling to save something and shut this mother down and getting rid of this unfair labor practice charge without caving entirely.
ReplyDeleteCumulus not blazing into court the minute the lads fired up The Dumb Zone -- I'm not coming up with a scenario that makes any sense other than near-capitulation.
But, as I've said above somewhere: No one knows anything.
@ Plainsman - It's an interesting theory and goes hand in hand with one of the items we've all been arguing about in that "The Ticket" is so unique from the rest of the Cumulus cloud but they're trying to treat it otherwise.
ReplyDeleteonly one problem with your speculation pman is that the nlra action was going to happen with or without cumulus filing suit
ReplyDeletePlainsman should delete the sock post @ 1:24 pm.
ReplyDeleteHaving been in house at big companies, I will say there are certain things at every company that will always be litigated. I imagine noncompetes in radio are one of those things across the industry; not just Cumulus. Not 100% sure Bennett or Cat are able to stop it if they wanted to. (I doubt they wanted to). The corp view is likely these have to be enforced all the time or the employees will start to think we will never enforce them.
@haw:
ReplyDeleteQuite true, but that's nothing Cumulus had any control over. My point was that Cumulus just sort of cruised on autopilot into prosecuting as though it was going to be something routine, something every employer just has to go through.
If the NLRB filings were all Cumulus had to worry about -- it's not nothing, but it's pretty narrow, limited to a couple of fact issues and the big unprecedented legal issue (are noncompetes at their level even legal under the NLRA?). Also, the NLRB defense, at least initially, is not nearly as complex or expensive as a lawsuit. In fact, if Cumulus had not sought to enforce the restrictive covenants, query whether the lads would have standing to challenge the covenants at all, having suffered no restrictions. The unfair labor practice case would then pretty much be limited to Dan Bennett's ill-advised statements not to discuss salaries. Again -- it's not nothing, but it's not much.
But Cumulus's/CU lawyers' half-hearted prosecution at the outset ended up being expensive without being effective, and (my ass is speculating) someone upstairs at Cumulus eventually tumbled to the fact that they were paying two big-deal law firms for pretty much zero benefit, not to mention armchair lawyers at The Source for Responsible Ticket Journalism cluck-clucking over its missteps.
Yes, I'm sure that must be it.
What if the real steel-toed boot is the friends we made along the way.
ReplyDeleteInteresting that the blame all goes to Cumulus lawyers and no credit is given to the Dumb Zone Legal Dream Team. But understandable since the overwhelming narrative at the outset was that D&J had been duped by overzealous lawyers who were way out of their depth.
ReplyDeleteWhat TDZ did was the equivalent of throwing deep down the middle on 3rd and 18 and gaining 40 yards... In that scenario, we ALWAYS blame the defense...
DeleteTDZ: No podcast, no deal
Cumulus: No deal.
TDZ: Okay, we're going to podcast
Cumulus: You have a non-compete
TDZ: NLRB, podcast
Cumulus: We're filing in federal court [gets tie stuck in the paper shredder, farts and falls down]
Court: No emergency relief, Hearing...
TDZ: Agreed order! Please, no hearing.
Court: Fine. Mediation - y'all should probably sort this out be be ready for battle next time - fix this $#-+ Rich... I mean, Cumulus...
Cumulus: [still removing tie from shredder] Ok!
Like I said a few days ago, if D&J saved their money for a rainy day, and were willing to risk extending the sit-out period and pay attorneys fees over time, this was a somewhat risk-free venture... The Cloud's somewhat incompetent/indecisive lawyering appears to be the proximate cause of how we got to a place where the TDZ is back "on the air" Surely someone in Atlanta, upon hearing that D&J's negotiations were going sideways, at least started thinking about their arguments in court as to the harm of the podcasts and why the non-compete should be enforced. I bet The Cloud's general counsel is going to have a few steak dinners courtesy of several law firm partners trying to get The Cloud's legal business...
In my opinion, the best I think you can say about TDZ is that fortune favors the brave... This narrative going on that we're all in the tank for The Cloud... No, I just hate watching highly capitalized institutions and lawyers making 10x my salary perform this poorly....
@Chief
ReplyDeleteC'mon man! Let's not get that started again.
@Just Wondering
As of this moment there has been no resolution, in any way. Why don't we wait until there is one before the gotcha games/told ya so's/oh I thought ___/and see how wrong you were's begin. It could very well be the case that Dan and Jake and their legal team make history and it could also very well be the case that they end up smacked down. Ditto on the latter with respect to Cumulus. Or the outcome could be, at the end of the day, as if none of this ever happened -- TDZ continues on as a pod, the n.c. stands for 6 months as related to working for a competitor, and both parties agree to keep mum.
I know the term “Dream Team” gets thrown around in jest, and quite a few jabs have been thrown at both PK and MB on here regarding their legal chops, but it’s looking like it’s not a bad strategy.
ReplyDeleteWe all assume Dan and Jake have had something in the works for a while. From lining up contracts to expire at the same time, to doing monthly segments on non-compete clauses. Maybe they were scouting Cumulus’ response to similar lawsuits and seeing where they were weak.
They often play dumb on the air (or podcast) but it’s seeming more and more like they had this planned out. From things like potentially using Cumulus IP. Maybe they knew the strategy Cumulus would take. Then, counter punch with your own legal strategy, knowing that Cumulus would be flat footed and slow to respond.
Do all of this to create as much of a headache for corporate that someone says “Make this go away”.
David and Goliath has been brought up before, but I don’t often hear people mention that in this case. Goliath’s stock price is at $4.64 and is down just over 17% in the last month.
If I’m a C-Suite member that has to answer to the board of a company that is losing money, I’m making this headache go away TODAY, because some of them may not see next year if the stock keeps going down.
Meanwhile D&J have added nearly 200 new subscribers in last few days as it becomes clear that their strategy will rule the day. Dan even mentioned that it is amazing that when they do pods the subscriptions go up and when they dont do any people quit.
ReplyDeleteIt might "rule the day." To soon to tell. I'm in no way predicting anything. Nor do I have any inside info or expertise. But sometimes situations seem to look one way, inevitably so, only to turn out completely different. Just as I thought the early days notion of a "slam dunk" for Cumulus was the logical outcome wasn't set in stone, so too do I think the idea of a victory lap for Dan, Jake and the Legal Dream Team is premature.
ReplyDeleteOne more thing. The pervading thinking on the business of content creation seems to be that somehow the creator has broken free from the evils of corporatism and predator capitalism. That is superficial analysis. In its not so long ago nascency this was somewhat true. No longer is this the case. This ranges across all major platforms (including Patreon). The monetization of the platform and the demands/rule/costs put on its creators increases now with damn near each quarter. This includes ever increasing soft and at times not so soft forms of censorship, data sharing, and other invasive practices/rules (including what's beginning to come online in the form of biometrics by way of access). All of this will exponentially increase as the platforms grow, are bought out by larger corporations, and in some cases (e.g., Facebook, et al.) will themselves become large corporations. The tech world has already shown that while it promises an egalitarian, equitable modus, it rarely if ever engages in praxis.
I like what Entailment said. New spin on things.
ReplyDeleteRadio will be the last frontier hahaha
ReplyDeleteTotally off topic, but Davy is just TOO loud at times... whenever he gets excited about his upcoming joke, i just can't stand his voice
ReplyDelete@Zulu
ReplyDeleteThank you.
The one thing I truly hope that doesn't happen as a result of all this is that the close relationships between Dan and Jake and the rest of The Ticket bunch have cultivarted over the years are sullied if not flat out broken (if it already hasn't occurred in some cases). That would be a shame. Because let's say The Dumb Zone is allowed to continue on unabated (or even if the non-compete is enforced), it would be great to hear Ticket guys go on the pod. This would especially be the case when one or two or all of The Musers retire. Imagine the gold you'd get out of Retirement George and Dan exchanges.
Had a few drinks and just gonna say, Dan and Jake should be at fight night. Screw the podcast.
ReplyDeleteAnyone go to Fight Night? If so, how well attended was it? What was the vibe?
ReplyDeleteI also wondered what the vive was like there last night.
DeleteGo ahead and delete Pman but you need to listen to Phillip Kingston's pod Loserville ASAP. He discusses the case and basically claims to have the ear and a direct line to the GC for the NLRB who he claims is a Bulldog. She wants to take this case over and knows of Dan and Jake. If you listen to Kingston you will see that they strongly believe that Cumulus is going down legally and called the Cumulus GC a buffoon.
ReplyDeleteI highly doubt Dan and Jake want to spend years, and trust me it will be years, in a legal battle. Much less one that could upend their friends' livelihoods. Including the ones who they claim to be fighting for in the first place.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I did listen to the pod. Kingston is rather unlikeable. Does that mean he's wrong or a poor lawyer, no. But neither does it mean he isn't. Whatever he is, he's definitely one thirsty dude. My guess is that thankfully for Dan and Jake, he's probably not actually running the show.
YMMV.
The videos and broadcast seemed like there was a good amount of people there, not sure though. Seems like every ticket event has the social media crowd going "This event sucks now," for like the last 5+ years lol.
ReplyDeleteThemed fights seem to have gone the way of Snapper John MD and the fake Michelle Wie.
ReplyDeleteThere’s a podcast called “lawyers behaving badly” that discuss TDZ in their latest episode. Not because of badly behaving lawyers, more because one of the hosts is a huge P1. She does fault the Cumulus lawyers for missteps as discussed here, but they dig into the NLRB stuff. Her point, it’s a radical reading for creative talent like jocks to not be bound by non competes, and most importantly, even if they win here, it goes to an incredibly conservative appeals court (the 5th) who is EXTREMELY business friendly. And if by some remote chance they win at the 5th, it goes to a conservative Supreme Court. The other co host flatly states if you’re trying to push a test case, this is the wrong place to do it.
ReplyDeleteC
And not to doubt Anon not Anin above, or Kingston, but the Tuesday hearing was postponed at the request of both parties to give mediation more time.
ReplyDeleteIf you’re so convinced this is a done deal w the NLRB, why bother negotiating at all?
Or maybe that’s a big old bluff. “Hey cumulus lawyers, give us what we want now and we’ll settle, otherwise the NLRB will swoop in and kill all your non competes everywhere”.
C
And to C's last words....This is exactly how DnJ have been misled by a couple of extremely pub hungry lawyers into believing they're doing all their former colleagues a favor, that they'll be thanked for it, everyone will be even better friends, and they'll go down in the annals of worker's rights as heroes. Jake said all but the last thing when on The Mom Game pod. I 100% believe DnJ's hearts are n the right place. I also believe 100% the hearts of those they're involved with are not.
ReplyDeleteNew doc. A Jones Day attorney appeared for C yesterday. The billables just got real.
ReplyDeleteThe appearance of Brian Jorgensen of Jones Day in Dallas casts an entirely new light on matters. I've got no kick against Cumulus's current lawyers, but Jones Day is one of the finest litigation and transactional firms in the United States -- and the costliest. Would not stun me if they'll be charging Cumulus four figs an hour -- and that's just for one lawyer. Don't know Mr. Jorgensen, but he appears very well-qualified for a matter like this, and he was a star at Texas Tech Law School.
ReplyDeleteBut here's the point: You don't hire Jones Day because you're happy with the lawyers you have. This site has listed what it (and some Confessors) perceived as technical and strategic errors by the Atlanta and Dallas firms, but it acknowledged the possibility that this was the way that Cumulus wanted to handle matters -- put things off, baby steps, hoping the thing would resolve or go away, jab SD+J on the cheap. Well, maybe it did.
But -- and there is always the danger that I'm reading too much into this, but it's what I DO -- it seems to have changed its mind.
And you don't hire Jones Day to negotiate a give-up.
And you might hire Jones Day if you think your current legal team may not have the horses to resist the exotic but interesting NLRA theories.
And you might just hire Jones Day to get a fresh start with this judge, with whom the current legal team got off on the wrong foot.
Looks like Cumulus may be going back to court, see if it can right this listing vessel.
This party ain't over. Guns up, baby.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteA tame criticism without any language or personal attack gets removed? C’mon, SPman.
DeleteAs I said above, sometimes appearances are superficial and have no bearing on final outcomes. Other than to serve as reminders of once again judging books by their covers. In this case, apply it to both parties. To toss in one last cliche, right now it's anyone's game.
ReplyDeletePrediction: Mediation is over, at least this tranche of it.
ReplyDeleteGuess: The lads' lawyers were only using it as a stall to have the TRO expire without having a hearing to brief and prepare for and never intended to settle.
Guess: Cumulus did NOT intend to give up on the podcast issue or other restrictive covenants, but clung to the hope that there could be a cheap settlement -- and it didn't want an expensive hearing, either.
Guess: Someone in Atlanta got fed the f up and decided to get some pitching in there.
Again -- a lot to read into a new attorney appearing for a party. Cumulus could fold tomorrow. But it's not smelling that way.
Not to bring that bs trope up again, but if a boot was steeled toed it might be named Brian Jorgensen. Guarantee you Kingston's public statements will henceforth be far more measured. He migjt've been at least somewhat correct in calling Cumulus's GC a clown show. eThat ended, decisively so, today. This is going to be fascinating to watch unfold. I agree with Plainsman in that it looks like both parties want to go to trial.
ReplyDeleteIt's his site, so there you go. Out of curiosity, why does his Smilin' Dan nickname bother you? Why care?
ReplyDeleteThe attachment some have to Dan and Jake is flat out cringe. It's cultish. I get it, they had a good show. In my opinion, and that's all it is, the show wasn't as good as BaD. But a solid show nonetheless. Yet this, as they say, ride or die attitude that was first affixed to Sirois and now to Dan and Jake and anything/anyone adjacent to them is just plain weird.
Morondog, the above isn't aimed solely at you. Indeed, it's not directly aimed at you. It's merely an observation of a headscratcher phenomenon.
While I am obviously a fan of the Smiling One and Jake, I’m more offended by the attachment to an unfunny, not-at-all-clever bit than I am offended out of some attachment to two radio hosts. In my mind it’s akin to folks, even the smiliest of all known Dans, saying “Aggy” as some sort of disparagement to Texas A&M. Either way, not a huge deal, but it was silly that the comment was deleted.
DeleteI keep seeing this get brought up but keep failing to see the people referenced.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I haven’t seen it either.
DeleteI think the boys are about to find out -
ReplyDeletehttps://youtu.be/mH9NzJwldok?si=jMFc0AxVwDeeW4aG
As a Ticket aside - - I'm giving the midday makeover a Month Pass - -lets get into football season & see how the segments go. Also - 10-3 on the Ticket is still alot better than another dial has to offer in that timeframe.
Good luck to them DMZ lads - they definitely took a major chance and current pod numbers suggest a good call. But BUT - (still in the camp of them joining 97.1 afternoon drive when they are able and playing the No Other Choice card...)
So you want someone making a comment to start naming names, calling individuals out? There are dozens upon dozens of comments here alone that evince the zeal of the fanboys. Couple that with reddit and you have a healthy faction.
ReplyDeleteNo, I just think it's interesting how your perceiving apparently a fair amount of comments here as cultish while I can't remember the last one I've seen which came across that way. Perception is reality I guess
ReplyDeleteMost times, when told they have a drinking problem, an alcoholic is increduluous--no matter how obvious it is to everyone else. The alcoholic might perceive themselves as being fine, and to not have an issue. And yes, that is their self constructed reality based on their perceived, subjective understanding. However, objectively they are in the nascent stage of liver failure and if they don't stop drinking, at best a tranfer is in order, at worst and most likely, they will be dead in 6 months. Which case is "more real"?
ReplyDeleteThat assumes the drinking is actually happening
ReplyDeleteNew post up. Blue-eyed ginger.
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ReplyDelete“Manners Maketh Man.” Attributed to William Horman
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ReplyDeletePMan's gonna shut this thing down once and for all.
ReplyDeleteOh who are we kidding he's loving every minute of his re-found attention.
And now Ty is leaving
ReplyDelete