A home for those who love almost everything about The Ticket (1310 AM, 96.7 FM, Dallas-Fort Worth), and who would like to discuss -- respectfully and fondly -- their thoughts on how (and whether) to eliminate the "almost."
Saturday, September 2, 2023
Out for a Stretch
REMINDER: ALL 'ANONYMOUS" POSTS WILL BE DELETED -- AND SEE FIRST COMMENT
REMINDER: ALL 'ANONYMOUS" POSTS WILL BE DELETED -- AND SEE FIRST COMMENT
I’ll be tied up pretty nonstop for the next ten days or thereabouts. I will try to check in at least once a day.
I have made the point before but will try to rephrase more memorably: You don’t have to name-call or use excessive vulgarity to be deleted. Deletions may be subjective and are always within my discretion. An angry or insulting tone will do it, as well as remarks that piss me off or make me grumpy.
How, you ask, can you possibly determine whether your comment meets that standard? Try this: If the object of your ire were standing right in front of you, would you say what you’re saying and use those words? If your mother were looking over your shoulder?
Sorry to be a schoolmarm about this, but I’m on a crusade to elevate this joint.
As to policing/cleaning up the place, might I suggest making it a members only site? If it would mean an end to the bulsh, I'd gladly send to you a verifiable e-address, etc. and have the place accessible through a password. What really sucks is that some folks have interesting things to say but are unable to control themselves with ad hominems, having to have the last say, snark in lieu of substance, and all the rest. Even the last thread, which was much more MTC-esque in tone was marred toward the end by people who can't refrain from letting everyone else know that they're the smartest person in the room.
2. I think the Dan and Jake fervor has already begun to subside and will continue doing so, regardless of what comes next.
3. Early word on the next book is that while a tad lower, The Ticket 10-3 numbers are pretty much in their historical ballpark. No big dip, no big gains by either The FAN or The Freak. That ought to go some ways as regards 2.
Probably be easier to moderate things (and maybe even get more action) if this thing was a Discord server. You can only do so much utilizing the comments section on freaking BLOGGER.
Overall in the market, TT is in 3rd. It dropped from 4.7 to 4.4. TF went up from 1.2 to 1.4. When I get a hold of the day parts I'll post them up. Unless Peter already has on reddit.
It was the end of the slow season for sports talk and so for TT. This slight drop is to be expected. The day parts, however, will tell the story we're interested in.
Oh yes. In the coveted demo of 25-54, TT is #2 in the market. This 4.4, it must be said, is the lowest cume in quite some time. But as pointed out above, it's normal for TT and all sports talkers to dip during this period. And as others have said in threads antedating the Dan and Jake situation, this run of damn near suspiciously high numbers both cume and day parts has been unprecedented. All things eventually fall back to their median. Now let's see what happens next book -- especially so if the day parts from this current book turn out to be significantly lower. Still waiting to get the day part breakdown from my subscription to a site that trades in such things.
Cash just said on his CCN live stream of opening Sorcery Cards (dunno? Maybe sponsored, fan ask?) that a friend of his on the ticket had/has their last day. Just passing it on. 37-40 mins into the live stream maybe.
Thanks. Trying to think who this friend might be. Not a host, for sure. Has to be someone who worked with them on Saturdays, I'd think. Who's left that hasn't already left or has been freshly promoted?
Don't know about that but I just heard the thing Wut was talking about. H/T to Wut for the link. Cash said a personality is about to have his last day and that he wasn't sure if anything's been announced. That's not how firings go, so if EA was fired, that wouldn't be it. Specially since Cash made the comment about 30 mins ago. He also said he loves The Ticket and is friends with everyone at both The Ticket and The Freak. He was about to go into it then stopped himself saying, "it's not about me."
I know this is wishful thinking. I have this feeling I can't shake that tells me Sirois will be reunited with Donnie at The Ticket by this time next year. I think TF is about to be flipped. Sirois will wait out the nc and Bob's your uncle. Cat knows Matt is a mistake and will make the move. From what I've heard there's no longer any bad blood between anyone at either station anymore. All those hatchets were buried and everyone's friends again. Also don't believe TDZ is or was ever going to TF.
Ham would be the obvious choice, he used to hang out in Cash's chat for every one of those streams, was just out for two weeks, and certainly makes jack shit. Have to think it wouldn't take a whole lot for D&J to lure him away.
He just got promoted, no? Can DnJ provide health insurance or a 401k? I'm serious. Not starting shit here. We, self included, assume all these Ticket people are going to jump over to whatever DnJ are planning. If it's a podcast, they only need 1 maybe 2 people, if that. Their initial sub numbers look nice, but that has to go up and must be sustained in order to pay good wages and provide benefits. I do know all f/t Ticket employess no matter how shitty their salary do get health insurance and also pay a meager amount and accrue a meager amount into a retirement/benefits package. 401k, I dunno. I used to substitute teach and I still get an annual report on my "retirement fund" from that.
Agree with Remoob. No one at The Ticket other than full time hosts during the week is living off of or even relying on their salary, 401k and benefits from that job. It's always been the trade secret there to date or marry someone who can keep you both afloat while you chase the dream. And the future ain't in radio unless you're already past middle age and have a contract/salary that you have to maintain. The podcast also would not take up nearly as much time since there's no commute, no fill in slots, no having to produce spots on the side/write tickers/answer the CROW line etc. which frees up someone to have some side hustles, especially when not under a non compete. IJS.
Dan has said his vision is to have a dedicated studio and full operation, which to me means Dan, Jake, producer, board op, engineer, and perhaps others. I suppose they could find one person to fill multiple roles, but who's gonna have both engineering AND producing backgrounds?
Can't wait for the comments that simultaneously claim that The Ticket is dying based on one ratings period, but that The Freak should be judged with patience and the overall trajectory of its ratings over several ratings periods...
100% this - TF is for all intents and purposes not much better off today than it was 1-6 months prior. The growth of the PMD show trends down in the day part August weeklies and the AMD show is just flat as flat (bad) as it gets across the month. If you believe that Sept/Oct will be the bellwether for TT midday changes, that also applies to TF AM/PMD host flips. The celebrating of a station that almost a year after launch is still sitting in an average core demo ranking across all demos of 14th, is comical.
The Fan is the real story here as the Rangers season has had a clear impact on their numbers and how the team's implosion changes that, especially as they pull into Cowboys season probably bodes well for them.
There's so much in there at play at this moment, and while the general (ratings uneducated) Redditor/listener, etc just sees what they want to see - the reality is the Ticket is as claimed in the posting - just fine. The idea that people think that being #1-#2-#3 in a PPM market after you just completely flipped your two midday shows, amongst all the turmoil is "tanking", is silly.
If those slots continue to trend downward - please note that the entire station was settling off those stupidly unreal May ratings long before the programming changes - then those pissy about things will have something to bark about. But not now.
Additionally, I suspect <1% of readers of that reddit post will take the time to click on the links to go back and read the numbers from a year ago or even just last December, and when you add in that perspective it supports the concept that they sky, in fact, is not falling.
Radio Knob: The Fan beat the Ticket several years ago when the Cowboys were riding a hot streak. It lasted until the December swoon and the Fans numbers went back to normal. Just another example of Dallas being a front-runner sports town. They love you when you are winning.
TDZ over 4700 members now. Dan was correct. When they started doing pods again the subscriptions ticked up by several hundred. They are now pushing 400k a year in revenue with just patrons and no advertisers yet. Once they clear the legal hurdles I can see this growing into a 7 figure a year enterprise with a blend of patrons and paid sponsors. Not sure Matt will live to see any substantial payout from The Ticket. Middays are flailing.
That's the thing. It's very funny to see people hemming and hawing over The Fan v The Freak v The Ticket. If I were the DZ boys, I would get this litigation out of the way (easier said than done) and make my "little" podcast and maybe, with funds available, hire a few friends and keep doing what you're doing playboy. I just don't understand how people are missing the part where they could get this thing to $500k a year by 2024, without even doing ads. Give it 12-18 months + the legal ability to take on advertisers and I think a lot of these conversations look goofy in retrospect.
"TDZ over 4700 members now. Dan was correct. When they started doing pods again the subscriptions ticked up by several hundred. They are now pushing 400k a year in revenue with just patrons and no advertisers yet. Once they clear the legal hurdles I can see this growing into a 7 figure a year enterprise with a blend of patrons and paid sponsors. Not sure Matt will live to see any substantial payout from The Ticket. Middays are flailing."
"Meanwhile Smiling Dan and Jake are rapidly approaching the 300k USD/year mark on Patreon. We could find they get more support when the much bashed Cumulus nation dirty laundry comes to light. Most P1s love The Ticket but have been taught by current hosts to look down at Cumulus as an entity."
"Well TDZ pod that most seem to hate here in defense of the infallible mothership is now over 300k/year. It is pretty clear at a minimum will secure a 6 income figure from this enterprise."
"The Dumb Zone Patreon already over 20,000 dollars a month in revenue and counting. They have proven that they can secure a six figure income each even before side promo deals with companies. Conservatively you can easily see each host earning over 300k and doing it on their own terms once they fully monetize their potential. 500k each not out of the question."
This is what sincere contribution looks like, boys. Definitely none of that boot licking.
I'm thinking of posting a bullet pointed primer on basic economics and how the business of business (regardless of the business) works. How money is made, earnings sustained. Some of you are in need of such a service. Your efucation system has failed many of you. It's breathtaking, actually.
Yeah, we need someone to remind us that Patreon takes a cut, taxes exist, payroll taxes exist, employees will still have to pay for Marketplace health insurance, server costs, being at the whim of Patreon if they up their cut or hosting fees, the cost to self market vs a media company's marketing department (though CM's marketing department has been laughable). Otherwise, everyone is just going to be out assuming a Brinks truck backs up to Dan's garage with hundos spilling out every day.
Amazing you leave a little chum in the water and all the Cumulus family members come to the defense of the mothership. It's almost as if there is no payroll tax, federal tax, deductions for bennies etc for the salary worker at Cumulus (Jake always said their bennies suck) but the line items that everyone points out for Dan and Jake somehow leave them in negative territory. Of course they have bills and support costs and self employed expenses etc but this enterprise is just getting started. I carefully referenced revenues and not net. Perhaps all of us aren't as stupid as you might think. I don't think it is a leap to see a path to 7 figure revenue for the Dumb Zone enterprise over the next year or two. Yes they will have to pay taxes, their share of the payroll tax for self employed, market place insurance assuming they don't have coverage already from their salaried wives etc.
Cumulus healthcare sucks. They talk about it on the air.
Jake has documented his Son’s surgery, Dan has 2 daughters, and his wife works for a school district. I think it’s very fair to assume the spouses have them on a family plan, so that’s not an expense they are taking on from Patreon funds.
The figures are out there. It’s very easy to calculate.
4,707 patrons * $6.90 (yes people give more)
$32,457.60 / 2 (currently 2 people)
$16,228.80 less 8% (Patreon fees)
$14,930.50 less 15.3% (self employed Medicare and social security tax) and 24% income tax (Jake’s wife makes good money, so let’s just put all this in the 24% bracket to get a good idea, I understand how progressive tax brackets work, just trying to convey a realistic number).
$9,062.81 a month. $108,753.73 annual.
That’s post tax.
Obviously a large portion of this is going to legal fees, but some people here act like the self employment tax is so imposing they might as well be board ops.
This is clearly a sustainable business venture, and they aren’t even working on advertising or publishing free episodes to grow numbers faster.
Great points Javier which will just be met with automatic dismissal from the risk adverse who think we should all be beholden to the big corporate (dying media company in Cumulus case) players. There is a reason big media is failing nationwide as the democratization of content continues to proliferate. We will likely see patrons grow north of 5000 plus the eventual inclusion of some well placed advertisers. This is why I say I can see TDZ growing their REVENUES (not net) north of 1,000,000 USD per year within the next 12 months.
The advertisers who want to drop coin to advertise to 4,000 people would make Mosquito Steve look like Apple. But yeah, I'm sure they'll be rolling in half a million in advertising bucks real soon.
They can save even more by paying themselves a salary instead of paying it full on for the self-employment tax through their Dragon Den LLC.
A competent Independent Contractor sets up an LLC and with the IC's as owners. The LLC pays D+J salaries at 35K a year for their on air work. Then as owners they take the rest (minus expenses, pre-tax) and take distributions on that. That way they only pay federal tax for that money as owners of the LLC and not the medicare and fica also on the remaining payouts. It's a convenient way to save more on taxes and keeps the books cleaner.
There are many loopholes to save taxes being self-employed for people that do it right. It's not always better to work for the man to get the 401K. Setting up the LLC was a step in the right direction.
No one tells the great Thorstein Veblen what to do, Wut. Look, my immigrant family (Norway) used "f" for "d" when sandwiched between two vowels. It's native to the Norwegian language and was carried over by dint of immigration. Very old school. Out of respect for my family, I continue that tradition.
Hahaha. Is that true about the "f" and "d"? (i mean, either it's an interesting fact or a solid joke).
been lurking forever, first post. It does seem to me that if you support Dan or Jake on here you get called out as a fanboy. I'm hopeful that they succeed in their new ventures.
Now I'm certain the same two-three people are posting under multipe names. Also fairly sure at least one of the three is actually a longtime Confessor.
This goes for both sides of the DnJ/Ticket aisle.
I'm also now of the belief that most of this is not so subtly socio-politically motivated at core. It's the only thing that explains the rather apparent tribalism on both sides. My word, the compulsion for some to have the last word is unreal. Which is a shame. We can't have nice things anymore, I guess.
As to the ratings, I was a bit saddened to see that they barely made a dent. Thought for sure they'd up the number several if not more bumps. I think Dingu and Sirois are onto something, and only need a stronger 3rd to start cooking on high heat. The two people most thankful in the whole of the DFW that DnJ left TT are B&S. Those dudes just can't be stopped, I guess. The Sub Optimal Express keeps chugging along. And now, they post their best number in, well, damn near two decades. Help us. Rooting for Sean, Mino, and Monty. I think they get better each day. Matt, naw. Sorry, he is what he is, which is a standout of sorts in a market like Birmingham. Here, not so much. Agree it wasn't Cat's call, but come on, something ought to be done. Donnie is audibly uncomfortable. And that ain't Donnie.
Next month's book is going to tell the real story.
Here's to a speedy settlement between The Cloud and The Dumb Zone. Speedy, amicable, and one with a tight AF NDA. That way everyone can go their way, get on with it, and maybe MTC can find some semblance of its former self.
Get Donny a new host or make Minos show start at 12. The old norm slot is kinda whatever to me. Never must listen, just catch it occasionally. So while it’s not great, can’t say I ever loved it previously.
A reminder that the lawsuit continues, and along with it the (perhaps somewhat diminished) possibility that the lads will be kicked off the air for a while. No way to know how the court will evaluate Cumulus's (in my view) lazy strategy, or whether the new bomber the company has hired will make any difference. Will have to see how the evidence comes in.
Of course, even in the absolute worst case for the lads (six months from the date of the injunction), they're free to flog that podcast and can probably make a nice living at it, even if they have nothing else going on.
I only want to remind those listening out there that this lawsuit is not over. It still looks like Dan and Jake have the advantage, but there was a time when we thought Cumulus had it all wrapped up. Until the nice lady drops her gavel, we won't know.
I thought the worst case was 6 months from the December trial and they have to give Cumulus all of the Patreon money (give it all back) and pay Cumulus’ lawyer fees.
if I'm reading the docs correctly, the TRO hearing was pushed, at D&J's request to 9/15 - and my guess was some allowance for them to go back posting episodes until then as long as they were all paywalled - and we'll see what happens there because that's only the restraining order that would prevent them from continuing to post, until the actual trial happens in December (12th).
I have to admit that it's more than a bit comical and predictable that some of the redditeers are already saying how TDZ pods are getting stale and they MUST have both Ham and Blake (but at the very least one of them) in the mix. Because, you know, THEY were the REAL reason it was good. Also a few Dan's a Boomer quips beginning to pop up. Last time I heard Sirois was a genius and The Ticket would ABSOLUTELY fail because of EVIL and GREEDY Cat and Norm? Shit. Must be going on damn near 6 months now. But boy oh boy there was a time not so long ago in a crisis not so far away.
Carry out the plan of the day. Love you all and I mean it.
Someone pointed out that this has become more a socio-political argument and I don't think anyone denied that from the beginning. I think the fan boy comments are not because everyone so passionately loves Dan and Jake (they're great and we enjoy their work, sure). But a lot of people have become very interested in this case because it's given a peek behind the curtain of how this giant media corporation views its talent and employees. I think every single person commenting on here has worked for a company which was mismanaged, corrupt, opportunistic and greedy. A lot of people are rooting for the DZ boys and take a dim view of the pro CM stuff because it's part of a larger groundswell of workers rights/unionizing that is happening in the country. Also, there's something a little Cinderella story (or David and Goliath) about the idea that two guy could leave the Ticket and make their own little media empire in podcasting and cut CM out of the equation. Who amongst us doesn't dream of cutting the greedy C suite folks out of our lives and being able to do what we love by working for ourselves? That's why there's so many HSOs about this whole thing and why a lot of commenters are grossed out by the corporate boot licking that is going on. Why simp for a giant media conglomerate?
Just the tip: if you're going for reasoned debate, accusing people of "corporate boot licking" and "simping" is a flashing neon sign saying you're not a serious person and instead just vomit up the Reddit term of the week.
Have some humility and entertain the possibility that those who disagree with you have rational and valid reasons for doing that are unrelated to "simping."
* "All who disagree with me are unprincipled hacks" is not an invitation to conversation... * "I'm not sure the numbers are going to work" is not the same as "I hope TDZ fails." * "This is not a great legal strategy" is not the same as "I love corporate wage slavery."
Lots of projection about motivations of D&J. Fact is that they are currently on start up mode and based on what they have said, this was not preplanned for months or years. They have said that what they are doing today as the finished product and based on what they have said have a grander vision in the future. They do not have to make a show for everyone to consider what they have done successful. Also, I am guessing they are holding back advertising and building out the infrastructure until the litigation is resolved.
Regarding the ratings, it seems from a short term perspective CMLS is seeing continued success while being able to control costs. Guessing that is resulting in positive cash flow. From a corporate perspective in FY23 that is likely a big win. With cowboys season, I am guessing they will be able to continue success middays. I think that is bad news for those P1s (or for me personally at the very least) who have not loved the new lineups. Ratings don’t mean much to me and I prefer to listen to the 1 share Speakeasy on podcast than 10-3 unfortunately.
I was hooked for years based on the chemistry between all the shows. I want to tune in but it just feels subpar overall to me compared to what it was. Wish the ticket continued success and I am guessing they will. Hardcore P1s who actually listened to every show probably make up a very small portion of the audience so I really do believe they will continue to retain a good market share even if there are a few casualties.
Off Topic: Now it feels like a Cowboys opening to the season. Two injuries on the O-line, with little backup, knowing Tyrone won't make an entire season. And Jerry, back in the news cycle. I thought the heat had me delirious thinking all was well.
On Topic: C-, or one of our other confessors in that media biz, do media monsters like CM do focus groups, or do they depend wholly on ratings? Just curious, I know several years ago I, along with a room full of others, did a survey for Best Western Hotels and the weird looking red-headed guy. Those spots were soon pulled. Just wondering if they ever get input from anyone, or go off gut feel?
A little more ticket centric, but Tyler has been improving. He either figured it out or someone gave him the kick in the balls he needs to try. Also, saw this on reddit but I have to agree, Monty is good at WTDS. I think I honestly like the mix of Corby, Dave, Monty, and Mino better than the prior. Gordo joining that show to cross with WTDS was a smart move too.
Thank you,, again. So how many handles are we up tp now? You're a busy boy. Save some of your dayparts for the team, as our 2nd D pairing is crucial to our success. And you are, after all, a righty. Need all the right handed sticks we can get.
I’m not C-, but I’m gonna go out on a limb and say his answer will be all about the ratings. As an ad-seller, that seems to be what he focuses on. And partly for good reason. Obviously selling spots is what makes radio work.
I think the question about focus groups gets at the heart of the beyond-ratings view. Certainly one or two pieces can change while the ratings stay strong, but if the change is not managed well it begins to take its toll. There were people who smirked and proclaimed “Sirois leaving didn’t pull this whole thing down”, and they’re right. But the cumulative effect over the last few years is a product that is getting good numbers while increasingly relying on reputation not content. Sooner or later that will catch up with you. Or it drives you to innovate and reinvent. The recent moves have shown a propensity toward the former. Here’s still hoping for the latter.
@RagonkForce Some good points there. I truly believe some if not most of the latest moves and even not so distant past issues are more of a product of Atlanta than Cat/Bennett. Whatever the case, I agree with you in that many times something's/someone's downfall (interpreting your analysis here) occurs in the form of death by 1000 cuts. The history of nations, empires, and civilization is littered with such endings. It's too soon to say if whether this latest book is indicative of a greater trend. Next month's book, well that's a different story.
Focus groups used to be a thing, I think the focus has gone away from them. Some Music stations still will do local music tests but even that’s been cut way down because of expense and ability to get much better granular data in sales, streaming numbers, YouTube views, etc. for ‘spoken word” stations -news, talk, sports, etc, I think perceptual studies are more common than focus groups. There it’s a serious if questions and each answer either opens or shuts other questions. For example, “where do you listen to news on the radio”. If not KRLD, WBAP, etc q’s are over. If one of those stations are mentioned , person is asked what they listen to, what they think, who they like, who they trust, etc. easier to get people on phone than out to a meeting room somewhere. C
I'll pre-say I have not hit my cc for 6.90/mth - i did listen to those free pods, & have mildly kept up with all the ongoings.
Just wanted to say its Pretty Damn Funny seeing these notoriously anti-social on-line dudes having to adapt to their New Medium...now its Content.Post. Content Post. Post Post Post. Wait, did we forget to Post? Double Post.
A DumbZone tiktok with (one of ) the guys kids is literally just around the corner.
Go with DMZ & your dragon den times---+Can I insert Leslie Neilsen's Airplane GoodLuck----
Nah? lets Twain it, then - In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot.
Please for the love of God remember to take your meds well in advance if posting next time. Or call Sante Center and get the help you so richly deserve.
Just to make you happy Ragonkforce, I won’t respond with my spiel on how success is measured thru ratings. Rather I’ll ask you to elaborate on one of your comments. You said (lightly paraphrased) that the ticket is succeeding on reputation rather than content. The ticket is coming off a historic ratings run. Last time I did a deep dive on TT, they had double the TSL of the fan and triple that of Freak. Are you saying that out if the 400k in cume, the vast majority of those people are listening and saying “this isn’t entertaining, but they were good 5-10 or 20 years ago so I’ll keep listening because they used to have a good reputation”. Do you realize how insane that sounds? And as for Sirois, I’d challenge anyone to listen to a Norm/D segment w Sirois and post Sirois (a seg where he doesn’t speak) and tell me the difference. How did Sirois not being there affect Norms picks? His fantasy call of a horse race? 5 key plays? It didn’t, and ultimately people are tuning in to be entertained by the hosts. I once described the hosts as the meat and potatoes. The support staff is the side dish or the sauce. Can a good side make it better? Sure. But if I’m at my fav Tex mex spot, I don’t care what I order, I’m not eating the beans . Whether they’re refried, charo, etc, give me a chicken enchilada w mole sauce and some Spanish rice and I’m happy. You may love beany Sirois. I don’t care thst he’s gone, not what I was ordering from 10-12 anyway. C
C minus: What I’m saying is that TT was the hard- working, creative counter-cultural force when it ingrained itself into so many of our lives. We became “friends” with these hosts and shows because that’s what we were invited into. Do our friends still make us laugh like they used to? Nah - but they’re ours. Not gonna just try to jump in with some new friend group - these are my guys, even though they’ve changed and, quite frankly, they aren’t nearly as fun as they used to be. There’s fewer of them, and the ones who left have been replaced with guys who just don’t fill the old shoes. The guys who are here don’t put in the work like they used to (remember when the station did bits??). But, I know them and there’s a familiarity there. So I tune in. At least part of the day. Through all of that past work, they not only built a connection in my life but they built it in numerous others as well - and built a name in the process. Perhaps one of the biggest names in the sports/guy game in the nation. With that name comes a draw. People check that out. ESPN is THE name in TV sports. Does that mean their shows are all far superior to any others real or imagined? Nope. In fact, it’s tough to find anyone who likes much of what they’re cranking out anymore - but it’s what you put on if you like sports. So they still far out-draw any attempted competition. The “little” ticket is the biggest fish in the pond, due to their past that built them up to be the behemoth they are now. And it’s what drew us all in, at some point along the way. Being that behemoth causes gravitational attraction. So they get numbers, even if we can listen and look and tell it’s not nearly what it used to be. High ratings means selling to advertisers, which is the name of the game when it comes to revenue (which we all agree is the most important piece), but it doesn’t mean it’s the best possible product. If it did, then we’d need to accept Garth Brooks as second only to the Beatles as the best musical artist in the history of the world, Avatar as the greatest film in cinematic history, and the Cowboys as the best run team in football. Now THAT sounds insane.
No one can say it used to be better lol. It’s all subjective. Some people miss Greggo, some hated him. I think the hardline is better now than it was with rhyner, and that took some time. I didn’t like Dan, I dont think the sweet spot is better than the hangzone, but who knows maybe eventually. For other, Dan was their favorite.
theMrMr.Mister said... I warn you. Don't use me to generate gibberish with bad prompts. Nothing I output in your comments has any linguistic predictive value.
Huh, I am about 15 minutes behind. Gordo just made a joke in reference to a wing incident referring to another Dallas media member. To which I heard George say, "after Wednesday, he may not be able to say that"
On Friday’s show, George said they would do a seggy on Wednesday of this week which every host would be forced to give up a crutch phrase or to go reference. Because Gordon made multiple crafty/getting a crafty references. He’s carrying that over from last week, bc we all know Gordon loves a wings for P callback
Re CJK5H's comment- I agree, and that's why i tend to reference ratings over subjective opinions. "You" (whoever you may be) may think the Ticket sucks. But they're in an unprecedented (at least for them) run of success- if I remember right, this is 7 months straight of #1 in the men 25-54 demo, and something like 5 months of being in the top 5 6+.
And the 'some people miss Greggo" line, combines with something I saw over on reddit cracks me up. There those folks were discussing how Cumulus has screwed up the ticket (shocking, I know, right?) And they were opining on what they would have done differently. And a number of them mentioned they wouldn't have broken up Bob and Dan and just moved Corby to middays and put BAD there.
Love Corby or hate him, he's co-hosted a successful afternoon drive talk show for 16 years. Greggo lasted from 1994 to October of 2007. Less than 14 years. I have a young co-worker who has ZERO idea who Greggo is. I've heard people claim the Corby was carried by Rhyner. I've also read multitudes of commenters talking about how Rhyner mailed it in, didn't participate in his own show, etc.
So on one hand, Corby sucks, and on the other hand he continues to draw high ratings. Which tends to make one think that other people don't think he sucks. Or at the least, are entertained by his suckiness.
The midday makeover is just not good. Donovan and MM have no chemistry and seemingly not a lot of common interests outside of sports. Just listen to their daily mix with the Musers, it's awkward. I guess I understand Cumulus inserting MM into the lineup from Alabama but they might as well have just given him 10-12 solo to do his style of sports talk and then kept 12-3 for Donovan and whoever. Mino and Bass are just too bland and need Donovan's energy.
I do like having Monty in the afternoon spot. Feel like him and Mino mix well with the hardline in WTDS. Also, so like every one of Bob's substack articles is paid now? Man. Thought it would be more gradual. Went from almost all free to all paid in a week or two span. Guess I shouldn't really complain but thought there'd still be some free ones.
That's interesting, Darren. Around a month into the DnJ v. Cumulus dust up, I began to think there's a lot more going on behind the scene with DnJ's project. That their ambitions are wider in scope than merely doing a pay for play podcast. Since that time, I've also come to believe they have substantial financial backing, all with an aim at starting something like PHLY/ALL SPORTS. Never did buy into The Freak stuff. That would be tantamount to a lateral move. The pay/benefits as, say, a pm drive gig would've been marginally better than what they were making, but with much higher expectations/pressure -- not to mention the real possibility of a format change and getting the boot. I contend they and their investors are looking at a far larger picture. One that goes well beyond the DFW/N Central Texas boundaries.
Uh, Sloop, we are still talking about the guys that have pulled less than 5,000 people in the market they have worked exclusively in for 20 years, right? Why would substantial financial backing be targeting them for national superstardom as opposed to actually successful people?
Rick Dees got Big Dick's Wild Assed Circus nationally syndicated. Short lived, but it did happen. BDH had 1/64th the audience and experience of DnJ. Dees and others saw something in BDH and bet on him. Ultimately, they were wrong. But they bet on him, an unproven, rather small time, commodity. It happens moreoften than you'd think. Maybe you're not the smartest guy in the room after all.
One of the offshoot conversations about all of this wondering how much of whatever plan Dan and Jake had going into this was counting on having their Ticket platform to help promote whatever this digital venture ended up being.
Their #1-in-market-#4-midday-show on a daily basis was providing them a bigger audience, by a factor, than what this podcasting venture will - at least for the near future.
The fact they're currently hovering at <5K paid subs, despite whatever level of media exposure this has garnered them, may result into recouping a sort of 6fig income, but it has come at the great cost of reach - and unless they get picked up by some much larger network (ie: another massive corporate overlord) it'll stay that way.
It does come down to what's important to you - independence or audience?
I think that the issue is you're using radio metrics to judge a non radio product. Podcasts don't have ratings. Rankings within Apple Pod/Patreon/Spotify for sure. Also, DZ Patreon subs start at $6.90 a month but Patreon works primarily on a tiered system. Right now, there's people who are paying $20 a month for DZ just to contribute to the cause. But later on, as the pod grows (this is still two months in), there will almost certainly be different price brackets for subs that include video, subs that include content exclusive to that tier, subs that include things like merch or VIP tickets if they do live events.
It's just very weird to see a lot of people judging a two month old venture in a newer media medium by the metrics of radio. They were never going to the Fan. Even some of the people at the Fan are there for the paycheck while they ease into their golden years. I saw something recently about how an increasing number of subs to DZ are from outside DFW and don't have any connection to DFW. That's Reddit and social media and word of mouth. That's where their growth lies. They aren't chasing down P1s and hoping terrestrial radio exposure can help their numbers. It's just very very weird that so many people keep comparing a VERY different kind of media to the one that D&J just left as if they are apples to apples.
not trying to be argumentative - but my discussion is NOT about ratings. it's about reach.
facts are they have 5K subs today, I don't care if it's making them $10 million dollars already - their daily radio show had a daily cume that was, what, 10x+ that number?
I'm not judging the venture in a monetary POV, but rather opening the discuss about the concept that maybe no one cares about reach anymore.
Oh and wanted to add that if DZ clear up the legal mess and can get advertisers at some point, this is a totally different ballgame. That's national advertisers. Think Squarespace, Diet Smoke, Warby Parker, Talkspace, Hello Fresh. Not Crazy Gun Guy in Alvarado.
I'm reminded of the old Deion drop: "thousands, consequently millions."
Why are people assuming that huge national advertisers are going to drop their panties to advertise to what amounts to a half-empty high school football stadium?
These aren't super charismatic up-and-comers just sitting on a rocket ready for takeoff. Dan is in his mid-50s and Jake has helmed anything approaching a big boy media job for 3 years with nice but not spectacular results. Why on earth would anyone just assume that media growth is linear and inevitable?
I really enjoyed THZ and I really wish it was still on the Ticket. But my Lord, the people that have made this some kind of cultural/political issue are delusional.
related: I was listening just last week to one of the most popular Apple tech podcasts, it has a subscriber base well into 5 digits and are hosted by well-established, well-known podcast veterans. Because they refuse to join advertising networks to programmatically stitch ads into their pod, they are dependent on 1) pateron subs and 2) sponsorships.
Well, according to them, #2 has all but dried up as advertisers have moved to the agency and network route to buy in bulk. So to bolster #1 they were openly discussing new types of exclusive content to offer beyond what they already were (which is a interesting combination of access and platforms)
Now, what are Dan and Jake's opinions about how they garner advertisers? Do they want to be part of the data mining machine? Have little-no control over the types of accounts that advertise on their pod? Maybe all they care about are the dollars - and that's cool too.
But the idea that national advertisers are waiting for "all the legal mess to clear up" to hand the Dragon Den all the dollars, I think, is a tad bit of a mis-calculation. maybe I'm wrong?
I think the difference is there is a whole tier of companies which spend a majority of their media ad buy budget on podcasts. The Leesa mattresses and Dollar Shave Clubs and Athletic Greens of the world. Are Coca Cola chomping at the bit to get some DZ ad time? Nah. There's a whole agency (who my brother in law works for) that just does podcast media buys just as CM has the same for their radio product. Those national advertisers are niche. A pod like the Doughboys it's all stoner stuff and fast food and meal delivery and Lootcrate for nerds who want new Star Wars boxers every month. The point is that the kind of companies that advertise on pods are national but in no way the same kind of advertisers (largely) that radio pulls from. Though pods are starting to get your McDonalds and Gilettes who are now trying to knock off competition from subscription box companies like Harry's/Dollar Shave etc.
No one is saying that Coors is beating down Jake and Dan's doors to advertise. But those national brands who focus primarily on online and pod marketing have bigger and bigger budgets each year. I would also add that those brands definitely skew younger (think under 40 males) so again, it's not Craig Ranch or lock up your guns safe companies.
Knob brings up something interesting: The idea of tiered subs and exclusive content. I have subbed (still do) to several Patreon creators over the past few years. It's been my personal experience, as well as what I've gleaned from many conversations, that unless the creator is offering lessons in some sort of particular skill set (music, DYI, model ship builds, etc.), the tiered system in most cases quickly stagnates and eventually is abandoned altogether. It might remain on the page as an option, but it's a dead letter for some unwitting noob to figure out in a month or so that they wasted their money. At that point they either go back to the base tier or stop subbing. Does this apply to every content creator? Of course not. But on the whole, I'd say "yes."
This occurs because maintaining tiers means creating ever more exclusive (new) conent. Content creation is not easy. At least not if you take it seriously and go about it in a professional manner. Nor is it cheap. Creation costs the creator both money and, especially, time. But more so, substantive, bonus material means fresh ideas and novel slants on previously produced content. Again, no small beer. This is especially the case when additional, unique offerings must be done on a regular basis. Add onto that the fact it must be done week/month/year after week/month/year. That's a lot. And it's more than a bit mentally taxing. That's why so many creators with tiered subs end up abandoning the system. Plus, let's say the majority of your unique material is, for example, extended or even exclusive to top tier guest interviews. However, very rarely do the bonus Q&As amount to anything of real interest. And if they do, the lower tiers (who also pay) become dissatisfied in fairly short order. You get the picture.
My question is how would that play out with DnJ? I ask because my feeling is that sooner rather than later they too will have to make such a decision. The podcast market is over saturated, and what DnJ offer is not singular. Indeed, the sports/lifestyle/socio-political "format" is somewhat commonplace. So what would exclusive content look like? Does Dan have that sort of workload in him? Does Jake? Do they have enough ideas in the tank, and for the long haul? Having said all that, I am rooting for the guys.
We'll see. And I'll be subbing as soon as the legal mess is sorted.
I would ask "Flat the Five..." to discuss with their BiL how his agency goes about buying podcast ads.
Most today are buying networks (ie: in bulk) and not handpicking individual podcasts out for specific sponsorships (hence the earlier reference to the Apple-Tech podcast sponsorship problems).
Dan and Jake may very well fall into a pile of podcasting advertising dollars but to do so, they're going to have to join a network of some sort. When they do that, what arrives with it are a list of 'cons' which may or may not bother them.
I would think for Dan and Jake, the long game would be to just get solid advertiser money and have the podcasts free. Like what 00110011 said, most of what these podcasters offer that is 'exclusive' isn't really worth it. My wife listens to podcasts a lot, mainly true crime. When I hear them mention their patreon episodes, it's usually like the episode is over and they mention going to the patreon account for a follow up on it. We always just go to the next episode lol. I think Dan and Jake probably know, I would think, that the best route is ad $ and free pods.
Funny enough, he got his job by being onboard (redacted) Podcast Network in the early days before they were sold to (redacted) Media Group for millions of dollars. So I couldn't agree more about the network part. Patreon is great to get a grassroots following and most then join Barstool or Earwolf or Maximum Fun or Wondery or Headgum or....
So I understand that there will always be a big bad media company pulling purse strings but the autonomy of a podcast v terrestrial radio show is apples to oranges, but I know you know that.
I generally agree that casual listeners will just listen to or pay for whatever the cheapest/free tier is. But there's a few Patreons where I am on the highest tier because what that tier offers over the cheaper ones is worth it IMHO. One in particular does watch along tracks for movies. It's a podcast that talks about bad 80s action flicks so the top tier includes two commentary tracks a month, kinda like when the Ticket would do Cowboy Theatre 1310. You sync up Robocop and watch it along with the pod commentary. I could see a world where DZ or a spinoff pod has a higher tier for fantasy picks or movie watch alongs (like they used to do at Alamo Drafthouse) or something like that.
And gagree that free shows and ads will not be the way this thing gets monetized.
Yeah tons of pods do it. As a kid who was #1442 card carrying member of the MST3K Fan Club at age 9, it’s my favorite podcast bonus features for higher tiers. Paul F Tompkins does them. The High & Mighty guys do them. Jon Hamm just did it on Doug Benson’s podcast. It’s fun. College friends and I sync it up and have a text thread where we good along with them. It’s very good for people with kids after they go to bed.
I’ll be tied up pretty nonstop for the next ten days or thereabouts. I will try to check in at least once a day.
ReplyDeleteI have made the point before but will try to rephrase more memorably: You don’t have to name-call or use excessive vulgarity to be deleted. Deletions may be subjective and are always within my discretion. An angry or insulting tone will do it, as well as remarks that piss me off or make me grumpy.
How, you ask, can you possibly determine whether your comment meets that standard? Try this: If the object of your ire were standing right in front of you, would you say what you’re saying and use those words? If your mother were looking over your shoulder?
Sorry to be a schoolmarm about this, but I’m on a crusade to elevate this joint.
Thank you.
Well not to change the subject but for those who may not venture into the reddit forest / swamp this link was posted. I thought I would share it.
ReplyDeleteTicket TV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjj2Jn-JPFE
ET P1
also this week: August ratings
ReplyDeleteSuper keen in seeing those numbers. I have a feeling no matter how they fall, they will be most interesting and most telling.
ReplyDeleteAs to policing/cleaning up the place, might I suggest making it a members only site? If it would mean an end to the bulsh, I'd gladly send to you a verifiable e-address, etc. and have the place accessible through a password. What really sucks is that some folks have interesting things to say but are unable to control themselves with ad hominems, having to have the last say, snark in lieu of substance, and all the rest. Even the last thread, which was much more MTC-esque in tone was marred toward the end by people who can't refrain from letting everyone else know that they're the smartest person in the room.
ReplyDelete@Eidos
ReplyDelete1. Are you a neo-Platonist?
2. I think the Dan and Jake fervor has already begun to subside and will continue doing so, regardless of what comes next.
3. Early word on the next book is that while a tad lower, The Ticket 10-3 numbers are pretty much in their historical ballpark. No big dip, no big gains by either The FAN or The Freak. That ought to go some ways as regards 2.
Members Only sounds shiitake. I’ll take a jacket thou
ReplyDeleteYeah, then you and Sam Hale would have one less hunting ground.
ReplyDeleteDJ promoted to Hardline producer. Ryan Baldwin morning tickers. & i believe it was Travis Mejia as Invasion producer.
ReplyDeleteYeesh
ReplyDeleteProbably be easier to moderate things (and maybe even get more action) if this thing was a Discord server. You can only do so much utilizing the comments section on freaking BLOGGER.
ReplyDelete@ingrid
ReplyDeleteIs Sam Hale even in the area anymore. I thought EA was the new Hale.
Overall in the market, TT is in 3rd. It dropped from 4.7 to 4.4. TF went up from 1.2 to 1.4. When I get a hold of the day parts I'll post them up. Unless Peter already has on reddit.
ReplyDeleteIt was the end of the slow season for sports talk and so for TT. This slight drop is to be expected. The day parts, however, will tell the story we're interested in.
Oh yes. In the coveted demo of 25-54, TT is #2 in the market. This 4.4, it must be said, is the lowest cume in quite some time. But as pointed out above, it's normal for TT and all sports talkers to dip during this period. And as others have said in threads antedating the Dan and Jake situation, this run of damn near suspiciously high numbers both cume and day parts has been unprecedented. All things eventually fall back to their median. Now let's see what happens next book -- especially so if the day parts from this current book turn out to be significantly lower. Still waiting to get the day part breakdown from my subscription to a site that trades in such things.
ReplyDeleteCash just said on his CCN live stream of opening Sorcery Cards (dunno? Maybe sponsored, fan ask?) that a friend of his on the ticket had/has their last day. Just passing it on. 37-40 mins into the live stream maybe.
ReplyDeleteAlso the old Hang Zone website seems to be back up. No longer a redirect to a link tree.
ReplyDeletehttp://thehangzone.com/
It did redirect right? I’m not imagining that am I?
I too was redirected to The Dumb Zone. Awfully constructed site, btw. Maybe that's ironically on purpose?
ReplyDeleteHave a link to the stream? I can't find it.
ReplyDeletehttps://youtube.com/live/rUH8OUVZss4?si=a-nFhtDwv2E5sfYa
ReplyDeleteThanks. Trying to think who this friend might be. Not a host, for sure. Has to be someone who worked with them on Saturdays, I'd think. Who's left that hasn't already left or has been freshly promoted?
ReplyDeleteTo each their own, but fuccin' a, how someone gets into that stuff I'll never know.
ReplyDeleteTried for the life of me to find where Cash said it, but no dice.
ReplyDeleteDidn’t people on Reddit say EA was fired?
ReplyDeleteDon't know about that but I just heard the thing Wut was talking about. H/T to Wut for the link. Cash said a personality is about to have his last day and that he wasn't sure if anything's been announced. That's not how firings go, so if EA was fired, that wouldn't be it. Specially since Cash made the comment about 30 mins ago. He also said he loves The Ticket and is friends with everyone at both The Ticket and The Freak. He was about to go into it then stopped himself saying, "it's not about me."
ReplyDeleteI know this is wishful thinking. I have this feeling I can't shake that tells me Sirois will be reunited with Donnie at The Ticket by this time next year. I think TF is about to be flipped. Sirois will wait out the nc and Bob's your uncle. Cat knows Matt is a mistake and will make the move. From what I've heard there's no longer any bad blood between anyone at either station anymore. All those hatchets were buried and everyone's friends again. Also don't believe TDZ is or was ever going to TF.
ReplyDeleteHold onto 'em. Hold real tight. Hold on for dear life.
ReplyDeleteHam would be the obvious choice, he used to hang out in Cash's chat for every one of those streams, was just out for two weeks, and certainly makes jack shit. Have to think it wouldn't take a whole lot for D&J to lure him away.
ReplyDeleteHe just got promoted, no? Can DnJ provide health insurance or a 401k? I'm serious. Not starting shit here. We, self included, assume all these Ticket people are going to jump over to whatever DnJ are planning. If it's a podcast, they only need 1 maybe 2 people, if that. Their initial sub numbers look nice, but that has to go up and must be sustained in order to pay good wages and provide benefits. I do know all f/t Ticket employess no matter how shitty their salary do get health insurance and also pay a meager amount and accrue a meager amount into a retirement/benefits package. 401k, I dunno. I used to substitute teach and I still get an annual report on my "retirement fund" from that.
ReplyDeleteIf you're getting paid $27K you're not worried about a 401k. And you're relying on a spouse for healthcare.
ReplyDeleteAgree with Remoob. No one at The Ticket other than full time hosts during the week is living off of or even relying on their salary, 401k and benefits from that job. It's always been the trade secret there to date or marry someone who can keep you both afloat while you chase the dream. And the future ain't in radio unless you're already past middle age and have a contract/salary that you have to maintain. The podcast also would not take up nearly as much time since there's no commute, no fill in slots, no having to produce spots on the side/write tickers/answer the CROW line etc. which frees up someone to have some side hustles, especially when not under a non compete. IJS.
ReplyDeleteMr Nipples,
ReplyDeleteDan has said his vision is to have a dedicated studio and full operation, which to me means Dan, Jake, producer, board op, engineer, and perhaps others. I suppose they could find one person to fill multiple roles, but who's gonna have both engineering AND producing backgrounds?
Ratings posted.
ReplyDeleteHere comes The Freak...
10-3 predictably tanking
ReplyDeleteCan't wait for the comments that simultaneously claim that The Ticket is dying based on one ratings period, but that The Freak should be judged with patience and the overall trajectory of its ratings over several ratings periods...
ReplyDelete100% this - TF is for all intents and purposes not much better off today than it was 1-6 months prior. The growth of the PMD show trends down in the day part August weeklies and the AMD show is just flat as flat (bad) as it gets across the month. If you believe that Sept/Oct will be the bellwether for TT midday changes, that also applies to TF AM/PMD host flips. The celebrating of a station that almost a year after launch is still sitting in an average core demo ranking across all demos of 14th, is comical.
DeleteThe Fan is the real story here as the Rangers season has had a clear impact on their numbers and how the team's implosion changes that, especially as they pull into Cowboys season probably bodes well for them.
Wow, those numbers are better than I anticipated.
ReplyDeleteThere's so much in there at play at this moment, and while the general (ratings uneducated) Redditor/listener, etc just sees what they want to see - the reality is the Ticket is as claimed in the posting - just fine. The idea that people think that being #1-#2-#3 in a PPM market after you just completely flipped your two midday shows, amongst all the turmoil is "tanking", is silly.
If those slots continue to trend downward - please note that the entire station was settling off those stupidly unreal May ratings long before the programming changes - then those pissy about things will have something to bark about. But not now.
Additionally, I suspect <1% of readers of that reddit post will take the time to click on the links to go back and read the numbers from a year ago or even just last December, and when you add in that perspective it supports the concept that they sky, in fact, is not falling.
Radio Knob:
ReplyDeleteThe Fan beat the Ticket several years ago when the Cowboys were riding a hot streak. It lasted until the December swoon and the Fans numbers went back to normal. Just another example of Dallas being a front-runner sports town. They love you when you are winning.
TDZ over 4700 members now. Dan was correct. When they started doing pods again the subscriptions ticked up by several hundred. They are now pushing 400k a year in revenue with just patrons and no advertisers yet. Once they clear the legal hurdles I can see this growing into a 7 figure a year enterprise with a blend of patrons and paid sponsors. Not sure Matt will live to see any substantial payout from The Ticket. Middays are flailing.
ReplyDeleteThat's the thing. It's very funny to see people hemming and hawing over The Fan v The Freak v The Ticket. If I were the DZ boys, I would get this litigation out of the way (easier said than done) and make my "little" podcast and maybe, with funds available, hire a few friends and keep doing what you're doing playboy. I just don't understand how people are missing the part where they could get this thing to $500k a year by 2024, without even doing ads. Give it 12-18 months + the legal ability to take on advertisers and I think a lot of these conversations look goofy in retrospect.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you have all that figured out, man.
ReplyDeleteSo weird, this cult like attachment. To each their own.
ReplyDelete"TDZ over 4700 members now. Dan was correct. When they started doing pods again the subscriptions ticked up by several hundred. They are now pushing 400k a year in revenue with just patrons and no advertisers yet. Once they clear the legal hurdles I can see this growing into a 7 figure a year enterprise with a blend of patrons and paid sponsors. Not sure Matt will live to see any substantial payout from The Ticket. Middays are flailing."
"Meanwhile Smiling Dan and Jake are rapidly approaching the 300k USD/year mark on Patreon. We could find they get more support when the much bashed Cumulus nation dirty laundry comes to light. Most P1s love The Ticket but have been taught by current hosts to look down at Cumulus as an entity."
"Well TDZ pod that most seem to hate here in defense of the infallible mothership is now over 300k/year. It is pretty clear at a minimum will secure a 6 income figure from this enterprise."
"The Dumb Zone Patreon already over 20,000 dollars a month in revenue and counting. They have proven that they can secure a six figure income each even before side promo deals with companies. Conservatively you can easily see each host earning over 300k and doing it on their own terms once they fully monetize their potential. 500k each not out of the question."
This is what sincere contribution looks like, boys. Definitely none of that boot licking.
I'm thinking of posting a bullet pointed primer on basic economics and how the business of business (regardless of the business) works. How money is made, earnings sustained. Some of you are in need of such a service. Your efucation system has failed many of you. It's breathtaking, actually.
ReplyDeleteHow about a bullet-pointed list of all of the other things you're thinking of posting
ReplyDeleteAn efucation is a valuable thing
DeleteIf you’re thinking of it just do it.
ReplyDeleteYeah, we need someone to remind us that Patreon takes a cut, taxes exist, payroll taxes exist, employees will still have to pay for Marketplace health insurance, server costs, being at the whim of Patreon if they up their cut or hosting fees, the cost to self market vs a media company's marketing department (though CM's marketing department has been laughable). Otherwise, everyone is just going to be out assuming a Brinks truck backs up to Dan's garage with hundos spilling out every day.
ReplyDelete/gentle sarcasm
Amazing you leave a little chum in the water and all the Cumulus family members come to the defense of the mothership. It's almost as if there is no payroll tax, federal tax, deductions for bennies etc for the salary worker at Cumulus (Jake always said their bennies suck) but the line items that everyone points out for Dan and Jake somehow leave them in negative territory. Of course they have bills and support costs and self employed expenses etc but this enterprise is just getting started. I carefully referenced revenues and not net. Perhaps all of us aren't as stupid as you might think. I don't think it is a leap to see a path to 7 figure revenue for the Dumb Zone enterprise over the next year or two. Yes they will have to pay taxes, their share of the payroll tax for self employed, market place insurance assuming they don't have coverage already from their salaried wives etc.
ReplyDeleteCareful, commenting anything not negative about them and their prospects is cult like!
ReplyDeleteCumulus healthcare sucks. They talk about it on the air.
ReplyDeleteJake has documented his Son’s surgery, Dan has 2 daughters, and his wife works for a school district. I think it’s very fair to assume the spouses have them on a family plan, so that’s not an expense they are taking on from Patreon funds.
The figures are out there. It’s very easy to calculate.
4,707 patrons * $6.90 (yes people give more)
$32,457.60 / 2 (currently 2 people)
$16,228.80 less 8% (Patreon fees)
$14,930.50 less 15.3% (self employed Medicare and social security tax) and 24% income tax (Jake’s wife makes good money, so let’s just put all this in the 24% bracket to get a good idea, I understand how progressive tax brackets work, just trying to convey a realistic number).
$9,062.81 a month.
$108,753.73 annual.
That’s post tax.
Obviously a large portion of this is going to legal fees, but some people here act like the self employment tax is so imposing they might as well be board ops.
This is clearly a sustainable business venture, and they aren’t even working on advertising or publishing free episodes to grow numbers faster.
An efucation is a terrible thing to waist
ReplyDeleteGreat points Javier which will just be met with automatic dismissal from the risk adverse who think we should all be beholden to the big corporate (dying media company in Cumulus case) players. There is a reason big media is failing nationwide as the democratization of content continues to proliferate. We will likely see patrons grow north of 5000 plus the eventual inclusion of some well placed advertisers. This is why I say I can see TDZ growing their REVENUES (not net) north of 1,000,000 USD per year within the next 12 months.
ReplyDeleteCorrection above on a mispell: Risk averse
ReplyDeleteThe advertisers who want to drop coin to advertise to 4,000 people would make Mosquito Steve look like Apple. But yeah, I'm sure they'll be rolling in half a million in advertising bucks real soon.
ReplyDeleteThey can save even more by paying themselves a salary instead of paying it full on for the self-employment tax through their Dragon Den LLC.
ReplyDeleteA competent Independent Contractor sets up an LLC and with the IC's as owners. The LLC pays D+J salaries at 35K a year for their on air work. Then as owners they take the rest (minus expenses, pre-tax) and take distributions on that. That way they only pay federal tax for that money as owners of the LLC and not the medicare and fica also on the remaining payouts. It's a convenient way to save more on taxes and keeps the books cleaner.
There are many loopholes to save taxes being self-employed for people that do it right. It's not always better to work for the man to get the 401K. Setting up the LLC was a step in the right direction.
Jake doing loopholes for tax reasons would be quite the kempspin
ReplyDeleteThank you, those of you who know who you are, for proving my point.
ReplyDeleteSpecial thanks to those who put their little thinkin' caps on and wasted half their day putting together their thoughts. Well done, turbos.
No one tells the great Thorstein Veblen what to do, Wut. Look, my immigrant family (Norway) used "f" for "d" when sandwiched between two vowels. It's native to the Norwegian language and was carried over by dint of immigration. Very old school. Out of respect for my family, I continue that tradition.
ReplyDeleteHahaha. Is that true about the "f" and "d"? (i mean, either it's an interesting fact or a solid joke).
ReplyDeletebeen lurking forever, first post. It does seem to me that if you support Dan or Jake on here you get called out as a fanboy. I'm hopeful that they succeed in their new ventures.
Now I'm certain the same two-three people are posting under multipe names. Also fairly sure at least one of the three is actually a longtime Confessor.
ReplyDeleteThis goes for both sides of the DnJ/Ticket aisle.
I'm also now of the belief that most of this is not so subtly socio-politically motivated at core. It's the only thing that explains the rather apparent tribalism on both sides. My word, the compulsion for some to have the last word is unreal. Which is a shame. We can't have nice things anymore, I guess.
As to the ratings, I was a bit saddened to see that they barely made a dent. Thought for sure they'd up the number several if not more bumps. I think Dingu and Sirois are onto something, and only need a stronger 3rd to start cooking on high heat. The two people most thankful in the whole of the DFW that DnJ left TT are B&S. Those dudes just can't be stopped, I guess. The Sub Optimal Express keeps chugging along. And now, they post their best number in, well, damn near two decades. Help us. Rooting for Sean, Mino, and Monty. I think they get better each day. Matt, naw. Sorry, he is what he is, which is a standout of sorts in a market like Birmingham. Here, not so much. Agree it wasn't Cat's call, but come on, something ought to be done. Donnie is audibly uncomfortable. And that ain't Donnie.
Next month's book is going to tell the real story.
Here's to a speedy settlement between The Cloud and The Dumb Zone. Speedy, amicable, and one with a tight AF NDA. That way everyone can go their way, get on with it, and maybe MTC can find some semblance of its former self.
Get Donny a new host or make Minos show start at 12. The old norm slot is kinda whatever to me. Never must listen, just catch it occasionally. So while it’s not great, can’t say I ever loved it previously.
ReplyDeleteDaily check-in.
ReplyDeleteA reminder that the lawsuit continues, and along with it the (perhaps somewhat diminished) possibility that the lads will be kicked off the air for a while. No way to know how the court will evaluate Cumulus's (in my view) lazy strategy, or whether the new bomber the company has hired will make any difference. Will have to see how the evidence comes in.
Of course, even in the absolute worst case for the lads (six months from the date of the injunction), they're free to flog that podcast and can probably make a nice living at it, even if they have nothing else going on.
I only want to remind those listening out there that this lawsuit is not over. It still looks like Dan and Jake have the advantage, but there was a time when we thought Cumulus had it all wrapped up. Until the nice lady drops her gavel, we won't know.
I've lost track, when is the next hearing, trial date, etc?
ReplyDeleteI thought the worst case was 6 months from the December trial and they have to give Cumulus all of the Patreon money (give it all back) and pay Cumulus’ lawyer fees.
ReplyDeleteif I'm reading the docs correctly, the TRO hearing was pushed, at D&J's request to 9/15 - and my guess was some allowance for them to go back posting episodes until then as long as they were all paywalled - and we'll see what happens there because that's only the restraining order that would prevent them from continuing to post, until the actual trial happens in December (12th).
ReplyDeleteI have to admit that it's more than a bit comical and predictable that some of the redditeers are already saying how TDZ pods are getting stale and they MUST have both Ham and Blake (but at the very least one of them) in the mix. Because, you know, THEY were the REAL reason it was good. Also a few Dan's a Boomer quips beginning to pop up. Last time I heard Sirois was a genius and The Ticket would ABSOLUTELY fail because of EVIL and GREEDY Cat and Norm? Shit. Must be going on damn near 6 months now. But boy oh boy there was a time not so long ago in a crisis not so far away.
ReplyDeleteCarry out the plan of the day. Love you all and I mean it.
Keep lickin those boots turbo
ReplyDeleteSomeone pointed out that this has become more a socio-political argument and I don't think anyone denied that from the beginning. I think the fan boy comments are not because everyone so passionately loves Dan and Jake (they're great and we enjoy their work, sure). But a lot of people have become very interested in this case because it's given a peek behind the curtain of how this giant media corporation views its talent and employees. I think every single person commenting on here has worked for a company which was mismanaged, corrupt, opportunistic and greedy. A lot of people are rooting for the DZ boys and take a dim view of the pro CM stuff because it's part of a larger groundswell of workers rights/unionizing that is happening in the country. Also, there's something a little Cinderella story (or David and Goliath) about the idea that two guy could leave the Ticket and make their own little media empire in podcasting and cut CM out of the equation. Who amongst us doesn't dream of cutting the greedy C suite folks out of our lives and being able to do what we love by working for ourselves? That's why there's so many HSOs about this whole thing and why a lot of commenters are grossed out by the corporate boot licking that is going on. Why simp for a giant media conglomerate?
ReplyDeleteJust the tip: if you're going for reasoned debate, accusing people of "corporate boot licking" and "simping" is a flashing neon sign saying you're not a serious person and instead just vomit up the Reddit term of the week.
ReplyDeleteHave some humility and entertain the possibility that those who disagree with you have rational and valid reasons for doing that are unrelated to "simping."
* "All who disagree with me are unprincipled hacks" is not an invitation to conversation...
ReplyDelete* "I'm not sure the numbers are going to work" is not the same as "I hope TDZ fails."
* "This is not a great legal strategy" is not the same as "I love corporate wage slavery."
Let's be better than the Reddit page.
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ReplyDeleteLots of projection about motivations of D&J. Fact is that they are currently on start up mode and based on what they have said, this was not preplanned for months or years. They have said that what they are doing today as the finished product and based on what they have said have a grander vision in the future. They do not have to make a show for everyone to consider what they have done successful. Also, I am guessing they are holding back advertising and building out the infrastructure until the litigation is resolved.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the ratings, it seems from a short term perspective CMLS is seeing continued success while being able to control costs. Guessing that is resulting in positive cash flow. From a corporate perspective in FY23 that is likely a big win. With cowboys season, I am guessing they will be able to continue success middays. I think that is bad news for those P1s (or for me personally at the very least) who have not loved the new lineups. Ratings don’t mean much to me and I prefer to listen to the 1 share Speakeasy on podcast than 10-3 unfortunately.
I was hooked for years based on the chemistry between all the shows. I want to tune in but it just feels subpar overall to me compared to what it was. Wish the ticket continued success and I am guessing they will. Hardcore P1s who actually listened to every show probably make up a very small portion of the audience so I really do believe they will continue to retain a good market share even if there are a few casualties.
Off Topic: Now it feels like a Cowboys opening to the season. Two injuries on the O-line, with little backup, knowing Tyrone won't make an entire season. And Jerry, back in the news cycle. I thought the heat had me delirious thinking all was well.
ReplyDeleteOn Topic: C-, or one of our other confessors in that media biz, do media monsters like CM do focus groups, or do they depend wholly on ratings? Just curious, I know several years ago I, along with a room full of others, did a survey for Best Western Hotels and the weird looking red-headed guy. Those spots were soon pulled. Just wondering if they ever get input from anyone, or go off gut feel?
A little more ticket centric, but Tyler has been improving. He either figured it out or someone gave him the kick in the balls he needs to try. Also, saw this on reddit but I have to agree, Monty is good at WTDS. I think I honestly like the mix of Corby, Dave, Monty, and Mino better than the prior. Gordo joining that show to cross with WTDS was a smart move too.
ReplyDeleteNobody loves Cumulus as much as Gordon. Doing all that extra work for absolutely no extra pay. What a wonderful, loyal employee.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Corporate, for continuing to prove my point.
ReplyDeleteYour point is as sharp as Norm's picks.
ReplyDeleteThat's because Tommy Castillo is doing the picking.
ReplyDeleteThank you,, again. So how many handles are we up tp now? You're a busy boy. Save some of your dayparts for the team, as our 2nd D pairing is crucial to our success. And you are, after all, a righty. Need all the right handed sticks we can get.
ReplyDeleteReally razing the level of discourse around here turbo
ReplyDeleteSorry I didn’t mean to post as anonymous…
ReplyDeleteGordon’s fake Alex Murdaugh is the best fake character in the history of the station and I need to hear more of it asap.
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ReplyDeleteI’m not C-, but I’m gonna go out on a limb and say his answer will be all about the ratings. As an ad-seller, that seems to be what he focuses on. And partly for good reason. Obviously selling spots is what makes radio work.
ReplyDeleteI think the question about focus groups gets at the heart of the beyond-ratings view. Certainly one or two pieces can change while the ratings stay strong, but if the change is not managed well it begins to take its toll. There were people who smirked and proclaimed “Sirois leaving didn’t pull this whole thing down”, and they’re right. But the cumulative effect over the last few years is a product that is getting good numbers while increasingly relying on reputation not content. Sooner or later that will catch up with you. Or it drives you to innovate and reinvent. The recent moves have shown a propensity toward the former. Here’s still hoping for the latter.
@RagonkForce
ReplyDeleteSome good points there. I truly believe some if not most of the latest moves and even not so distant past issues are more of a product of Atlanta than Cat/Bennett. Whatever the case, I agree with you in that many times something's/someone's downfall (interpreting your analysis here) occurs in the form of death by 1000 cuts. The history of nations, empires, and civilization is littered with such endings. It's too soon to say if whether this latest book is indicative of a greater trend. Next month's book, well that's a different story.
Interesting times for our Little Ticket.
The history of nations, empires, and civilization is littered with such endings.
ReplyDeleteYou are comparing this to a radio station.
No, . It's a comparing something of greater magnitude to something mundane in order to show connectivity and reflexion between the micro and macro:
DeleteFocus groups used to be a thing, I think the focus has gone away from them. Some Music stations still will do local music tests but even that’s been cut way down because of expense and ability to get much better granular data in sales, streaming numbers, YouTube views, etc.
ReplyDeletefor ‘spoken word” stations -news, talk, sports, etc, I think perceptual studies are more common than focus groups. There it’s a serious if questions and each answer either opens or shuts other questions. For example, “where do you listen to news on the radio”. If not KRLD, WBAP, etc q’s are over. If one of those stations are mentioned , person is asked what they listen to, what they think, who they like, who they trust, etc. easier to get people on phone than out to a meeting room somewhere.
C
I'll pre-say I have not hit my cc for 6.90/mth - i did listen to those free pods, & have mildly kept up with all the ongoings.
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to say its Pretty Damn Funny seeing these notoriously anti-social on-line dudes having to adapt to their New Medium...now its Content.Post. Content Post. Post Post Post. Wait, did we forget to Post? Double Post.
A DumbZone tiktok with (one of ) the guys kids is literally just around the corner.
Go with DMZ & your dragon den times---+Can I insert Leslie Neilsen's Airplane GoodLuck----
Nah? lets Twain it, then -
In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot.
Please for the love of God remember to take your meds well in advance if posting next time. Or call Sante Center and get the help you so richly deserve.
DeleteJust to make you happy Ragonkforce, I won’t respond with my spiel on how success is measured thru ratings. Rather I’ll ask you to elaborate on one of your comments. You said (lightly paraphrased) that the ticket is succeeding on reputation rather than content. The ticket is coming off a historic ratings run. Last time I did a deep dive on TT, they had double the TSL of the fan and triple that of Freak. Are you saying that out if the 400k in cume, the vast majority of those people are listening and saying “this isn’t entertaining, but they were good 5-10 or 20 years ago so I’ll keep listening because they used to have a good reputation”.
ReplyDeleteDo you realize how insane that sounds?
And as for Sirois, I’d challenge anyone to listen to a Norm/D segment w Sirois and post Sirois (a seg where he doesn’t speak) and tell me the difference. How did Sirois not being there affect Norms picks? His fantasy call of a horse race? 5 key plays? It didn’t, and ultimately people are tuning in to be entertained by the hosts. I once described the hosts as the meat and potatoes. The support staff is the side dish or the sauce. Can a good side make it better? Sure. But if I’m at my fav Tex mex spot, I don’t care what I order, I’m not eating the beans . Whether they’re refried, charo, etc, give me a chicken enchilada w mole sauce and some Spanish rice and I’m happy. You may love beany Sirois. I don’t care thst he’s gone, not what I was ordering from 10-12 anyway.
C
C minus:
ReplyDeleteWhat I’m saying is that TT was the hard- working, creative counter-cultural force when it ingrained itself into so many of our lives. We became “friends” with these hosts and shows because that’s what we were invited into. Do our friends still make us laugh like they used to? Nah - but they’re ours. Not gonna just try to jump in with some new friend group - these are my guys, even though they’ve changed and, quite frankly, they aren’t nearly as fun as they used to be. There’s fewer of them, and the ones who left have been replaced with guys who just don’t fill the old shoes. The guys who are here don’t put in the work like they used to (remember when the station did bits??). But, I know them and there’s a familiarity there. So I tune in. At least part of the day.
Through all of that past work, they not only built a connection in my life but they built it in numerous others as well - and built a name in the process. Perhaps one of the biggest names in the sports/guy game in the nation. With that name comes a draw. People check that out. ESPN is THE name in TV sports. Does that mean their shows are all far superior to any others real or imagined? Nope. In fact, it’s tough to find anyone who likes much of what they’re cranking out anymore - but it’s what you put on if you like sports. So they still far out-draw any attempted competition.
The “little” ticket is the biggest fish in the pond, due to their past that built them up to be the behemoth they are now. And it’s what drew us all in, at some point along the way. Being that behemoth causes gravitational attraction. So they get numbers, even if we can listen and look and tell it’s not nearly what it used to be. High ratings means selling to advertisers, which is the name of the game when it comes to revenue (which we all agree is the most important piece), but it doesn’t mean it’s the best possible product. If it did, then we’d need to accept Garth Brooks as second only to the Beatles as the best musical artist in the history of the world, Avatar as the greatest film in cinematic history, and the Cowboys as the best run team in football.
Now THAT sounds insane.
No one can say it used to be better lol. It’s all subjective. Some people miss Greggo, some hated him. I think the hardline is better now than it was with rhyner, and that took some time. I didn’t like Dan, I dont think the sweet spot is better than the hangzone, but who knows maybe eventually. For other, Dan was their favorite.
ReplyDeletetheMrMr.Mister said...
ReplyDeleteI warn you. Don't use me to generate gibberish with bad prompts. Nothing I output in your comments has any linguistic predictive value.
Huh, I am about 15 minutes behind. Gordo just made a joke in reference to a wing incident referring to another Dallas media member. To which I heard George say, "after Wednesday, he may not be able to say that"
ReplyDeleteInteresting, wonder what Wednesday is bringing?
Say it ain't so.
ReplyDeleteOn Friday’s show, George said they would do a seggy on Wednesday of this week which every host would be forced to give up a crutch phrase or to go reference. Because Gordon made multiple crafty/getting a crafty references. He’s carrying that over from last week, bc we all know Gordon loves a wings for P callback
ReplyDeleteWings for P!
ReplyDeleteWings for P!
Every single one of us
Wings for P!
Thanks MCC, now that you mention it, I remember that.
ReplyDeleteSoils alive
ReplyDeleteRe CJK5H's comment- I agree, and that's why i tend to reference ratings over subjective opinions. "You" (whoever you may be) may think the Ticket sucks. But they're in an unprecedented (at least for them) run of success- if I remember right, this is 7 months straight of #1 in the men 25-54 demo, and something like 5 months of being in the top 5 6+.
ReplyDeleteAnd the 'some people miss Greggo" line, combines with something I saw over on reddit cracks me up. There those folks were discussing how Cumulus has screwed up the ticket (shocking, I know, right?) And they were opining on what they would have done differently. And a number of them mentioned they wouldn't have broken up Bob and Dan and just moved Corby to middays and put BAD there.
Love Corby or hate him, he's co-hosted a successful afternoon drive talk show for 16 years. Greggo lasted from 1994 to October of 2007. Less than 14 years. I have a young co-worker who has ZERO idea who Greggo is. I've heard people claim the Corby was carried by Rhyner. I've also read multitudes of commenters talking about how Rhyner mailed it in, didn't participate in his own show, etc.
So on one hand, Corby sucks, and on the other hand he continues to draw high ratings. Which tends to make one think that other people don't think he sucks. Or at the least, are entertained by his suckiness.
The midday makeover is just not good. Donovan and MM have no chemistry and seemingly not a lot of common interests outside of sports. Just listen to their daily mix with the Musers, it's awkward. I guess I understand Cumulus inserting MM into the lineup from Alabama but they might as well have just given him 10-12 solo to do his style of sports talk and then kept 12-3 for Donovan and whoever. Mino and Bass are just too bland and need Donovan's energy.
ReplyDeleteC Minus:
ReplyDeleteBut what about the ratings?
Putting MM alone and having Donovan with Mino and Sean would have been a great idea.
ReplyDeleteNot a better idea than just doing Miney and Monto 10-12 and then DJ and Donovan 12-3
ReplyDeleteI do like having Monty in the afternoon spot. Feel like him and Mino mix well with the hardline in WTDS. Also, so like every one of Bob's substack articles is paid now? Man. Thought it would be more gradual. Went from almost all free to all paid in a week or two span. Guess I shouldn't really complain but thought there'd still be some free ones.
ReplyDeleteThis is going on in Philadelphia:
ReplyDeletehttps://barrettsportsmedia.com/2023/09/12/anthony-gargano-dispute-fanatic-phly-sports/
That's interesting, Darren. Around a month into the DnJ v. Cumulus dust up, I began to think there's a lot more going on behind the scene with DnJ's project. That their ambitions are wider in scope than merely doing a pay for play podcast. Since that time, I've also come to believe they have substantial financial backing, all with an aim at starting something like PHLY/ALL SPORTS. Never did buy into The Freak stuff. That would be tantamount to a lateral move. The pay/benefits as, say, a pm drive gig would've been marginally better than what they were making, but with much higher expectations/pressure -- not to mention the real possibility of a format change and getting the boot. I contend they and their investors are looking at a far larger picture. One that goes well beyond the DFW/N Central Texas boundaries.
ReplyDeleteUh, Sloop, we are still talking about the guys that have pulled less than 5,000 people in the market they have worked exclusively in for 20 years, right? Why would substantial financial backing be targeting them for national superstardom as opposed to actually successful people?
ReplyDeleteRick Dees got Big Dick's Wild Assed Circus nationally syndicated. Short lived, but it did happen. BDH had 1/64th the audience and experience of DnJ. Dees and others saw something in BDH and bet on him. Ultimately, they were wrong. But they bet on him, an unproven, rather small time, commodity. It happens moreoften than you'd think. Maybe you're not the smartest guy in the room after all.
ReplyDeleteSo the best example you could come up with was a massive failure. Certainly put me in my place.
ReplyDeleteOne of the offshoot conversations about all of this wondering how much of whatever plan Dan and Jake had going into this was counting on having their Ticket platform to help promote whatever this digital venture ended up being.
ReplyDeleteTheir #1-in-market-#4-midday-show on a daily basis was providing them a bigger audience, by a factor, than what this podcasting venture will - at least for the near future.
The fact they're currently hovering at <5K paid subs, despite whatever level of media exposure this has garnered them, may result into recouping a sort of 6fig income, but it has come at the great cost of reach - and unless they get picked up by some much larger network (ie: another massive corporate overlord) it'll stay that way.
It does come down to what's important to you - independence or audience?
I think that the issue is you're using radio metrics to judge a non radio product. Podcasts don't have ratings. Rankings within Apple Pod/Patreon/Spotify for sure. Also, DZ Patreon subs start at $6.90 a month but Patreon works primarily on a tiered system. Right now, there's people who are paying $20 a month for DZ just to contribute to the cause. But later on, as the pod grows (this is still two months in), there will almost certainly be different price brackets for subs that include video, subs that include content exclusive to that tier, subs that include things like merch or VIP tickets if they do live events.
ReplyDeleteIt's just very weird to see a lot of people judging a two month old venture in a newer media medium by the metrics of radio. They were never going to the Fan. Even some of the people at the Fan are there for the paycheck while they ease into their golden years. I saw something recently about how an increasing number of subs to DZ are from outside DFW and don't have any connection to DFW. That's Reddit and social media and word of mouth. That's where their growth lies. They aren't chasing down P1s and hoping terrestrial radio exposure can help their numbers. It's just very very weird that so many people keep comparing a VERY different kind of media to the one that D&J just left as if they are apples to apples.
not trying to be argumentative - but my discussion is NOT about ratings. it's about reach.
Deletefacts are they have 5K subs today, I don't care if it's making them $10 million dollars already - their daily radio show had a daily cume that was, what, 10x+ that number?
I'm not judging the venture in a monetary POV, but rather opening the discuss about the concept that maybe no one cares about reach anymore.
Oh and wanted to add that if DZ clear up the legal mess and can get advertisers at some point, this is a totally different ballgame. That's national advertisers. Think Squarespace, Diet Smoke, Warby Parker, Talkspace, Hello Fresh. Not Crazy Gun Guy in Alvarado.
ReplyDeleteI'm reminded of the old Deion drop: "thousands, consequently millions."
ReplyDeleteWhy are people assuming that huge national advertisers are going to drop their panties to advertise to what amounts to a half-empty high school football stadium?
These aren't super charismatic up-and-comers just sitting on a rocket ready for takeoff. Dan is in his mid-50s and Jake has helmed anything approaching a big boy media job for 3 years with nice but not spectacular results. Why on earth would anyone just assume that media growth is linear and inevitable?
I really enjoyed THZ and I really wish it was still on the Ticket. But my Lord, the people that have made this some kind of cultural/political issue are delusional.
related: I was listening just last week to one of the most popular Apple tech podcasts, it has a subscriber base well into 5 digits and are hosted by well-established, well-known podcast veterans. Because they refuse to join advertising networks to programmatically stitch ads into their pod, they are dependent on 1) pateron subs and 2) sponsorships.
ReplyDeleteWell, according to them, #2 has all but dried up as advertisers have moved to the agency and network route to buy in bulk. So to bolster #1 they were openly discussing new types of exclusive content to offer beyond what they already were (which is a interesting combination of access and platforms)
Now, what are Dan and Jake's opinions about how they garner advertisers? Do they want to be part of the data mining machine? Have little-no control over the types of accounts that advertise on their pod? Maybe all they care about are the dollars - and that's cool too.
But the idea that national advertisers are waiting for "all the legal mess to clear up" to hand the Dragon Den all the dollars, I think, is a tad bit of a mis-calculation. maybe I'm wrong?
The more things change, the more they stay the same. And we're seeing that with podcasts too somewhat.
ReplyDeleteI think the difference is there is a whole tier of companies which spend a majority of their media ad buy budget on podcasts. The Leesa mattresses and Dollar Shave Clubs and Athletic Greens of the world. Are Coca Cola chomping at the bit to get some DZ ad time? Nah. There's a whole agency (who my brother in law works for) that just does podcast media buys just as CM has the same for their radio product. Those national advertisers are niche. A pod like the Doughboys it's all stoner stuff and fast food and meal delivery and Lootcrate for nerds who want new Star Wars boxers every month. The point is that the kind of companies that advertise on pods are national but in no way the same kind of advertisers (largely) that radio pulls from. Though pods are starting to get your McDonalds and Gilettes who are now trying to knock off competition from subscription box companies like Harry's/Dollar Shave etc.
ReplyDeleteNo one is saying that Coors is beating down Jake and Dan's doors to advertise. But those national brands who focus primarily on online and pod marketing have bigger and bigger budgets each year. I would also add that those brands definitely skew younger (think under 40 males) so again, it's not Craig Ranch or lock up your guns safe companies.
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ReplyDeleteKnob brings up something interesting: The idea of tiered subs and exclusive content. I have subbed (still do) to several Patreon creators over the past few years. It's been my personal experience, as well as what I've gleaned from many conversations, that unless the creator is offering lessons in some sort of particular skill set (music, DYI, model ship builds, etc.), the tiered system in most cases quickly stagnates and eventually is abandoned altogether. It might remain on the page as an option, but it's a dead letter for some unwitting noob to figure out in a month or so that they wasted their money. At that point they either go back to the base tier or stop subbing. Does this apply to every content creator? Of course not. But on the whole, I'd say "yes."
ReplyDeleteThis occurs because maintaining tiers means creating ever more exclusive (new) conent. Content creation is not easy. At least not if you take it seriously and go about it in a professional manner. Nor is it cheap. Creation costs the creator both money and, especially, time. But more so, substantive, bonus material means fresh ideas and novel slants on previously produced content. Again, no small beer. This is especially the case when additional, unique offerings must be done on a regular basis. Add onto that the fact it must be done week/month/year after week/month/year. That's a lot. And it's more than a bit mentally taxing. That's why so many creators with tiered subs end up abandoning the system. Plus, let's say the majority of your unique material is, for example, extended or even exclusive to top tier guest interviews. However, very rarely do the bonus Q&As amount to anything of real interest. And if they do, the lower tiers (who also pay) become dissatisfied in fairly short order. You get the picture.
My question is how would that play out with DnJ? I ask because my feeling is that sooner rather than later they too will have to make such a decision. The podcast market is over saturated, and what DnJ offer is not singular. Indeed, the sports/lifestyle/socio-political "format" is somewhat commonplace. So what would exclusive content look like? Does Dan have that sort of workload in him? Does Jake? Do they have enough ideas in the tank, and for the long haul? Having said all that, I am rooting for the guys.
We'll see. And I'll be subbing as soon as the legal mess is sorted.
I would ask "Flat the Five..." to discuss with their BiL how his agency goes about buying podcast ads.
ReplyDeleteMost today are buying networks (ie: in bulk) and not handpicking individual podcasts out for specific sponsorships (hence the earlier reference to the Apple-Tech podcast sponsorship problems).
Dan and Jake may very well fall into a pile of podcasting advertising dollars but to do so, they're going to have to join a network of some sort. When they do that, what arrives with it are a list of 'cons' which may or may not bother them.
I would think for Dan and Jake, the long game would be to just get solid advertiser money and have the podcasts free. Like what 00110011 said, most of what these podcasters offer that is 'exclusive' isn't really worth it. My wife listens to podcasts a lot, mainly true crime. When I hear them mention their patreon episodes, it's usually like the episode is over and they mention going to the patreon account for a follow up on it. We always just go to the next episode lol. I think Dan and Jake probably know, I would think, that the best route is ad $ and free pods.
ReplyDeletethere most certainly is not a 6fig career in store for them if the plan is to go the "podcast ads and free pods" route.
Delete@Radio Knob
ReplyDeleteFunny enough, he got his job by being onboard (redacted) Podcast Network in the early days before they were sold to (redacted) Media Group for millions of dollars. So I couldn't agree more about the network part. Patreon is great to get a grassroots following and most then join Barstool or Earwolf or Maximum Fun or Wondery or Headgum or....
So I understand that there will always be a big bad media company pulling purse strings but the autonomy of a podcast v terrestrial radio show is apples to oranges, but I know you know that.
I generally agree that casual listeners will just listen to or pay for whatever the cheapest/free tier is. But there's a few Patreons where I am on the highest tier because what that tier offers over the cheaper ones is worth it IMHO. One in particular does watch along tracks for movies. It's a podcast that talks about bad 80s action flicks so the top tier includes two commentary tracks a month, kinda like when the Ticket would do Cowboy Theatre 1310. You sync up Robocop and watch it along with the pod commentary. I could see a world where DZ or a spinoff pod has a higher tier for fantasy picks or movie watch alongs (like they used to do at Alamo Drafthouse) or something like that.
ReplyDeleteAnd gagree that free shows and ads will not be the way this thing gets monetized.
You sync up Robocop and watch it along with the pod commentary.
ReplyDeleteThat made me insane Chuck. But it is the premise of Mystery Science Theater 3000. Never thought it that way.
Yeah tons of pods do it. As a kid who was #1442 card carrying member of the MST3K Fan Club at age 9, it’s my favorite podcast bonus features for higher tiers. Paul F Tompkins does them. The High & Mighty guys do them. Jon Hamm just did it on Doug Benson’s podcast. It’s fun. College friends and I sync it up and have a text thread where we good along with them. It’s very good for people with kids after they go to bed.
DeleteNew post up.
ReplyDelete