A home for those who love almost everything about The Ticket (1310 AM, 96.7 FM, Dallas-Fort Worth), and who would like to discuss -- respectfully and fondly -- their thoughts on how (and whether) to eliminate the "almost."
Been out of town lately. Thanks for not getting too out of hand (finger did hover over the delete switch a few times), and special thanks to Peter Welpton.
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I'm glad to see The Dumb Zone doing well, creeping up on 6,000 subscribers. I'm not one of them, but these gents are talented broadcasters and I was a fan of Jake on The Ticket. Back and forth on Dan, but he was one of those guys that stations like The Ticket need, a guy like Corby, who is something of a lightning rod. He deserved and deserves his success.
I see there is continued speculation that these guys are going to end up either at the Freak or some other station or media outlet.
Despite their talent and potential to be media assets, I'm not sure about that.
If I were running a media outlet of any kind – hell, if I were an employer of any kind – and I stood back and took in the positions they have communicated over the past year respecting contracts, management, unionization, their own prior employer and its executives in particular, litigation, and NLRB complaints – would I hire them even if I admired their talent? Of course, a lot of that came from their famously obstreperous lawyers, but (1) the lads had to have signed on to that, and (2) those lawyers ain't going anywhere.
I'm NOT saying those positions were wrong or legally weak. I'm just trying to put myself in a potential employer's shoes.
I dunno, man. I read somewhere that they were investing in improved facilities and technology and exploring other ways to monetize their current situation.
Yesterday I stumbled across this new DZ promo and it led me to wonder about some basics of an ad-supported media outlet and how that does, or does not apply to a podcast. (spoiler: creating content is hard, effectively selling content is harder)
If you were a 24 hr a day/7 day a week radio station with a mid-five digit cume, what kind of revenue could you expect to generate? Now, what if you're the same station w/ a 4 digit cume?
How does that work for a 3x a week paywalled podcast with nowhere near 10K subscribers, even across all of its now several variations?
If I'm a business with ad dollars - what's the allure to spend money with DZ, other than maybe you just like the podcast and want to support their effort? Is it just really inexpensive? What's the CPM look like? Are you local? National? What's the demo? Typically the most financially successfull podcasts are part of networks that aggragate agency buys of media spend.
There simply aren't that many podcasts making the kind of bank I think DZ desire doing it solo and it really makes me begin to wonder about the back story of how they got to this point. It simply reads like this is the result of other outcomes not panning out as expected and having to pivot to a model they'd really not thought through.
If the point is to get businesses to give them ad dollars I'm really unclear how successful it is in that message.
It's not/won't be. They must grow subs annually by X in order to maintain Y income vis a vis rising costs and all the rest. That and/or increase sub fees and/or create a sub tier system. The latter entails exclusive content/perks, which also means more work. A big issue that I'd like to think they're working on is a longer reach. 6-ishK subs holding steady for these months is a job well done. However, if they've hit the local market ceiling, that doesn't bode well for the mid or long run. If in, say, 6-8 months from now they're not in the 8-10K range, they'll most likely have to go about things differently (assuming that's not already happening as I type this).
Going to be interesting from a purely business POV to see how it all shakes out. They could set a precedence, be a model of sorts for others who wish to break out from the traditional path. Or. They could end up as a cautionary tale. Too early to say, either way. Frankly, TDZ as a whole and D/J/B individually aren't my cup of tea. But I'm pro do your own thing, forge your own path. So godspeed to them.
You genuinely have no idea what you are talking about
The largest Patreon pod (Matt and Shane) have basically 3 tiers. If Books Could Kill has 2 real tiers. Chapo Trap House has 2 tiers, but they really are the same thing. Basement Yard has 3 tiers, but really just 2 (extra epi.) True Anon has 3 tiers, 1 with discord only 1 with pod but only 2 real ones.
Some of those make you go up a tier to get an episode early, or get access to a discord or give specific feedback/vote on topics. Which is minimal extra work on the team.
Most of the big pods also get ad $$ outside of Patreon, but you get an ad free version if you subscribe. also, minimal work.
6k subs with growth YTD is a positive. Adding in ad sales is a positive. They don't "have" to make a change if they are netting ~$465k / year from Patreon at 6k subs. that's without a major ad push. that's without doing events outside of pods until recently. that's with limited live video streams (no ads on those yet.)
Highly doubt they end up as a cautionary tale at this point. They have the runway financially to do it for a while, find what works - and there are plenty of others out there making it work - and keep pressing on.
They do have costs, but the costs are not real ones. They already pay Blake. They have the video guy. They could easily turn the Den into a studio if they wanted to for not a ton of money.
They are fine now and will continue to be fine moving forward with their current business model.
That is all good insight, but I remain curious just about this push to attract advertisers. I don't see the draw for a business, local or otherwise, to spend meaningful ad-dollars on such a limited audience. Unless it's altruistic, or just wickedly cheap.
Sure, a $500 spend means a lot more to TDZ than it does a commerical radio station, but to make that ad up into something of value you have to sell a lot of those and then how does that affect the paid subscriber's interest now that there are that many ads?
Not making a value judgment on TDZ on the whole, just curious about the 5 minute promo they posted singularly designed to get businesses to give them ad dollars and how realistic it is for them to expect a real revenue stream from it.
companies are spending more money on worse product (podcasts) every single day out there. as long as they have their #s/analytics, which they do, they will be fine on this front.
typically the way this works is if you are a patron, you have an ad free version of the pod that plays. maybe not 100% ad free, but pretty close to it. the way i've seen it done is either they cut all the ads out via ad breaks for the patrons or you have the live reads in it, but the actual ads that are dropped in are cut out. LOTS of pods out there do this, with way fewer subs than TDZ.
i would fully expect it to be a very real revenue stream for them. they are unique in that they have a local following that should be much easier to monetize (locally) than someone who starts up a podcast that is more national/topic driven.
smaller pods than TDZ with fewer followers on social are doing just fine with the same model of patron/free epis/live streams/ad revenue.
They also have a steady stream of listeners sending them $ via Venmo just as a means of support. These payments as well as the $690 payments avoid the Patreon cut, to (steel-toed) boot.
Good info, Baron, but the pods you speak of have a broad, national audience which affords them far more growth potential vis-a-vis ad rev. That was my whole point. I specifically stated they're doing very well right now. The focal point being "right now." That's not to say they won't continue to do well, i.e., continue to grow. But there has to be a plan in place to do so. As well, reliance on an audience's generousity and current disposable income (talking Venmo and other additional donos here) is not something you can, ahem, bank on. So, while you provide some very good info, I fail to see how I genuinely don't know what I'm talking about. Such language most always is used when oneself either doesn't have all the facts or when one has had one's buttons pushed (i.e., emotionally charged). How I could've pushed any button/s, I've no idea. Then again, there is a touchiness to anything pertaining to Dan and Jake (either side of the fence) that at this point appears pathalogical. As a related aside: I never claimed to be an expert or anything else in the matter.
Baron, you seem to have a good handle on the basics of how Patreon works, but you and D1 and Listener also are tossing out there means of revenue that are derived from fickle, unstable sources. To figure in the $690 sit ins, Venmo, and the likes into projected earnings for even 6 months out is risible. And Baron, you make many assumptions that appear based on your desired outcome rather than meaningful, projectible data/data trends. I do think Franklin poses some good questions that can only be answered down the road. I also agree with them that this subject matter is highly charged to the point where honest dialogue is hard to come by. See below the comments of We Got Receipts and Cloud. You scratch your head and think, "Why? To what end?" To me all of this falls under the aegis of interesting local media talk and speculation. Which, I find interesting. Seems like others do, as well. Yet for some, it's a bloodsport of sorts. I just don't get it. To end on a positive, I do think Baron, Franklin, and Radio Knob all made good points/asked good questions.
This might be a first, but I highly recommend you check out a comment on the reddit page that offers up a nicely constructed historical diagram of TT/FAN/TF ratings. The data is taken from Peter's (kind) offerings, and the commenter's analysis is sober, even-handed. The data strongly suggest that the penultimate comment on the previous thread by Danica appears to be onto something. Namely, that there has been a subtle and now not so subtle shift in public taste with respect to sports and guy talk that's been taking place over the past few years. The data shows the shift beginning right around TT's historical (one might say outlandish or even suspicious) ratings run. I recall a commenter just prior to said run that kept insisting change not only to the landscape was coming but also to TT in particular as it adapts to a reversion to the older (honestly, pre-Ticket, since TT pretty much started the then new model) way of sports talk radio. If memory serves, they claimed we would soon be hearing a more sports centric presentation across the board. This person was roundly lambasted. Perhaps they were more correct than not after all? Perhaps they were a couple of years ahead of the game? This next book will tell us much of what we need to know. Interesting times around the DFW radioscape, for certain.
while I agree it there is an advantage to seeing the data in a visual format (and I appreciate that person's effort into creating them), I do think there's a bit of a problem to viewing data over that amount of time due to the shifts in the panel over that same period of time. It's kinda like looking at just the records of a NFL team over a long period of seasons, without also having the context of schedules, conference opponents, etc.
But, I also think there's a value in either reminding both - those long time reddit ratings post readers or educating those recently newly interested - that pre-2023, the Ticket regularly found itself in rating ranks that were not #1 - either over all or even their favorite daypart of days gone by.
The reality is not being #1 is a place the Ticket waded in for vast stretches of its existence and it thrived just fine, what's different is that TF typically also lagged behind it. Currently their strong stretch of "slow but steady" consistency has paid off and we'll see how that pans out over time. And ulitmately, it will shift again, as it always does and will.
As for sports vs guy talk - I don't think anything related to the above is about shift in general market content preference trends as much as it is about shifts in measurment.
You're awful. Is this your way of getting back at those who bullied you as a youth? Or were you and still are the bully? Sad little clown, this one. Go get your shinebox, little man.
Can we talk about Hispanics? More and more they are making up the dfw sportsfan in everybody's world. They seem to choose the Fan. In fact a couple of my friends in this demo seem barely aware the Ticket even exists.
There were times I would listen to other sports stations because there would be a big sports story & the Musers couldn’t talk about it for 3 straight segments because they had to do Fake Tiger or the Hardline had to do E-News because they were sponsored. I still think that lack of flexibility is a flaw.
Always good to check in on sentiment a year ago when talking about the contextual background of TDZ success: This from August of last year
C minusAugust 22, 2023 at 9:41 PM Why do you think that? By my estimation TDZ blinked, there’s absolutely nothing in these recaps about the NLRB angle. And most if not all of their response was “NLTB preempts federal judge, you can’t do shit Sholer”. Now it looks like TDZ is playing from a weak position. Jake’s non compete is clear that they’re in violation, they clearly converted Cumulus assets (like the Twitter account, etc) to their use, and I know I’ve heard them use the dumb zone when they were the hang zone, so that’s definitely cumulus IP.
I’m not sure why Cumulus would, or would need to give up much to reach a settlement. And I’d want the financial pain for TDZ to send a warning to others thinking about breaking a non compete. Basically “we’ll come after you, cost you plenty and extend your non compete if you think about crossing the cloud”. I think Cumulus’s lawyers play hard ball here,
Despite me really liking Bob, I have to agree. The 3-7 line up is a "trying to put a square peg in a round hole" to use Ticket vernacular. It doesn't work and it's not Bob's fault. Along those lines, 12-3 bores me, too. I find myself listening to more Podcasts and less of that time slot. It used to be my absolute favorite. Now both 12-3 and 3-7 are both diluted (3-7 was always horrible to me anyway) and I've lost interest almost completely.
I feel like no one remembers how criticized the Dan and Jake show was originally lol
Both early D&J and Bob + Corby + Danny HL got a ton of shade from Ticket adjacent internet. The pandy killing off sports for awhile sure didn’t help from a content perspective
Does any of this sound familiar if you listen to advertising of you favorite Ticket advisor?
"The Labor Department is trying to rein in bad actors relative to two big areas of advice: rollovers from 401(k) plans to individual retirement accounts and purchases of insurance products like annuities, according to retirement and legal experts.
The Council of Economic Advisers estimates Americans lose up to $5 billion a year due to conflicts of interest relative to one insurance product, an indexed annuity."
Thank you for your service, Trajan Troll, and all that you do to your body. WUT? WUT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!? YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT GENOSTIM AND VIGOR FIT ARE SNAKE OIL????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! NEXT YOU'RE GONNA SAY SANTE CENTER IS NOT A HEALING ENVIRONMENT!!!!!!
DFW has always been a city for transplants, however, it was much more organic in the past. Now, we have hoards of people moving in with no personal or professional network that they're attached to so the Ticket won't be spread to them by word of mouth (not to mention remote workers). Without active advertising, the Ticket will be diluted and people will look for sports and find the Fan.
Since Dan and Jake left the station, I still listen to the Musers but not as religiously as I once did. Catch some Muse in the News and the 9am hour with Gordo is still worth listening to. But after that, I just tune out for the day.
I have tried giving the Dumb Zone show a listen but it is not drawing me in despite me being a huge Jake and It's Just Banter fan. There is just something different about the chemistry with Dan, Jake and Blake outside the nurturing confines of the little Ticket that I can't place my finger on but it is different enough for me to not want to pay for their content.
I was never a big fan of Sturm joining the Hardline to begin with but that ship has long since sailed and clearly I am in the minority since the HL is killing it in the ratings.
Overall, I miss the good ol' days of the station. My hatred for Jeff Catlin for enabling this clustereff of a mess is beyond words. It should have been The Musers, Donnie/Mike Sirois, BaD Radio with Dan, Jake and Bob and then the Hardline with Corby, Danny and Dave Lane. Keep Sean Bass, Mino, Monty, Detty and so forth as producers and to add content when needed. Instead we have this existing midday lineup that is not doing anything for me and the current ratings represent that it is not doing much for anyone else either.
I feel your pain TK, but the hate thrown Cat's way is miguided. Vat had nothing to do with anyone leaving. He has nothing to do with salaries and (ultimately) contract negotiinations. That falls to Atlanta. He works with what he is given and with whom (again, ultimately via Atlanta) that is (at times put) before him. I know that's not the "narrative" many of you want to hear, but it is reality. Alas, forums such as this value emotion over truth.
How do you know that to be genuinely the case? Did Cat say this? Did someone on-air say this? If so, where might we listen? URL? People make so many claims as fact here and elsewhere that don't hold. Does this?
Thanks, KTCK & DZ Enjoyer. Interesting stuff. Let's hope it actually comes into play. Anyone check out Danny on the last DZ YT offering? Man. Danny's song was something else. DIRECT shot at Cat. Direct shot at TT. Pulled the curtain back on a bit of Ticket function sexcapades. Didn't really spare TF either. Made it pretty clear without being explicit that TDB and TF might not be long for this world. He does dig working with Sirois and KT. Says they're better to work with than anyone he ever worked with at either TT or TF (hello, Rhyner). By the end of it I got the sense TDB is looking to go the way of TDZ. Betcha dollars to deeznutz that TDB becomes the 1st pod to come aboard TDZ bus. From there I bet more follow. I'm thinking Donnie. His name was mentioned by the way. Have to say the whole thing had an odd vibe to it. But. This format totally suits Dan. He gets to 'be on' SNL or the more edgy equivalent that he plays the role of principal writer and focal point of every segment. Smallest of sample size I admit, but very little sports is involved. I'm not sure if any of them come off as likeable tbh and like I said it has an odd or uncomfortable vibe to it, but all the same there's something sorta compelling about it too. I guess the thing that stood out to me that I thought would be different, mostly because of Jake, is the lack of depth on any level. I wanted to hear the goofy and the bawdy, but I also wanted to hear something of substance that didn't have to do with their at this point who gives a f anymore legal stuff. The closest thing was Dan talking about Steve Martin's thoughts on his own childhood. The whole thing of 'secretly' recording Jake trying to convince Blake to wear lingerie was just stupid. Plus I thought these guys were progressive. That ain't.
I can totally see why a certain segment of The Ticket inclined population glom onto it. It just isn't for me.
I watched it yesterday. Felt like a bunch of dudes in varying degrees of middle age playing out a hipster cool daddy scene from a knock off of an already dated and now thought to be crap Tarantino flick. The only thing missing and what would've brought it somewhat into these here the 20's would've been if one of them was wearing a full on Buc-ee's furby pj kit. That would've been the chef's kiss gilded lily of a cherry on top of the thing. If only. Bubble Living is the best living. Specially if it's in luxury custom built homes in the leafy burbs of the 817.
I am waiting for all the legal scholars to tell me that the noncompete ruling from the NLRB today doesn't have a chance to stand up in court. Perhaps the Cumulus legal team can file the appeal on behalf of all corporate America. I am sure that would be a well vetted legal strategy.
Do you understand the difference, the marked difference, between the case between Cumulus and Dan/Jake and a case such as this? Obviously not. Please go elsewhere for your puerile shenanigans. I suggest reddit. There you'll find a horde of third rate minds. Enjoy.
I don’t know about “doesn’t have a chance” but a Dallas tax firm “Ryan” has already filed suit in the federal court in Dallas. It’s been assigned to a Trump appointed judge, and any appeals go to the 5th circuit which is EXTREMELY conservative. It might succeed, or Ryan could have a TRO in short order. I’ll admit, I don’t have enough knowledge of FTC rule making authority and the legality of executive branch delegation of authority to the FTC absent legislative guidance, but as usual, the lawyers will make their money no matter who ends up being right. C
I don't want to get political/legal here, but I do know a bit about this stuff. Some random thoughts:
(1) The Federal Trade Commission has stolen a march on the NLRB in issuing this rule knocking out employment noncompetes. Both agencies have been accused of excessive politicization in recent years and there have been calls for the abolition for one or both of them. There is proposed legislation before Congress now that would really reign in the NLRB. Neither likely to vanish soon, but the FTC is a better candidate for sunsetting than the NLRB.
(2) I don't know whether the lawsuit -- there will probably be more than one -- seeking to enjoin or invalidate this rule will be successful. As I wrote when the Dumb Zone litigation began and it was clear that D+J's counsel was going for this result, to eliminate noncompetes by federal fiat would be a very significant shift in the balance of authority between the states -- which have had more-or-less exclusive jurisdiction over contract law, with exceptions of (you can't discriminate against certain groups) -- and the federal government. In a word, it would be a real jolt to the concept of federalism.
But federal authority has been creeping ever forward for some time, and it's not beyond imagining that the court challenges will fail. The FTC is supposed to protect competition generally, and so it is at least arguable that this falls within its bailiwick. In the past, FTC power has been exercised to examine mergers of a certain size (pursuant to the Hart-Scott-Rodino process), and corporate antitrust -- not restrictions on individual competition. My guess? Whoo -- 55-45 in favor of injunction (likely resulting in invalidation), but I'm not putting much dough on it either way.
(3) In recent years, the U.S. Supreme Court has reigned in some regulatory programs as a result of challenges to the "Chevron doctrine" referring to a 1984 case in which courts were required to give broad deference to agency decisionmaking. But this doctrine has been under attack recently and some recent decisions have invalidated agency rules. A major case that could spell a big change in deference to agencies was argued in January of this year, relating to the imposition of certain fees for commercial fishermen.
(4) If the commercial interests challenging the new rule fail in court, the fight will likely go to Congress, where I would be more confident that the FTC will get spanked and the rule reversed. Business is angry enough, it might go to Congress first (and you can bet the pols will have something to say about this even before the courts rule). The overall lesson -- this won't get resolved for quite some time.
(5) This is one of those issues that will depend in part on the outcome of the election, both Presidential and Congress. Who appoints federal judges is (my opinion) the most important domestic issue in federal elections, because those appointments affect policy for years to come.
Meet the new talent, same as the old talent. If you've spent any time listening over the past few months it's not to difficult to guess who's coming and who's going. Someone already inadvertantly or got lucky and spilled the beans on where some of the goers are going.
My guess, Zulu, is that the comment is referring to TF, Sybil and Pugs and Co.'s frequent to the point they seem like full-timers fill ins on TF, TDB and Danny's/Sirois's continued on-air digs at both iHeart and not so subtle hints that their time might be short, Danny's pointed song and words on TDZ 4/20 YT episode, and that said song and words indicate the writing's on the wall where TDB is heading (canned from TF, Sybil/Pugs taking their place, and hopping aboard TDZ pod train). How's that for a run on sentence! My apologies. But I think that's the gist of the comment.
The DZ has its moments, but it has become evident there was Zero Plan. & they are still a very niche Pod - that niche being Ticket listeners. Or I guess they're striving to be the dallas.tv. but instead of the 30sec clips its 2.5hrs. Solid.
Unless some deep pockets and a vision step in, TDZ won't be around in 2 years, if that. It's not compelling enough. They neither discuss nor do anything that isn't already being discussed or done but better and in a national sense. BookBook is correct: there's is a niche audience, Ticket listeners. I wish them all the best, but if my two months subbing (Feb and Mar '24) and this latest YouTube offering are indicative of their bag, sadly the thing doesn't have legs. An earlier comment from one ronzo at least in part put a fine point on their chief issue. That is, there's an off putting aging hipster mentality to it. Yeah, Jake isn't yet 40, but no matter, the vibe is strong. I think a big first step they can take would be to cease and desist on everything Ticket and Ticket adjacent. They have to move past it if they're going to actually grow past a certain and finite number of Ticket listeners. You want to get Sirois on, fine. Talk F1, festivals, and edibles. Enough direct, sideways, and other shots at Cat or The Ticket. Enough with your lawyers. My word, Kingston is in their latest skit on YouTube. It's small time, local yokel potatoes. Find a direction that's truly yours. As of now they're nowhere near that.
Only a suburbanite hipster would think they aren't hipster wannabes. But they are. Make no mistake about it, they are. 420 Day, bruh. Pot, bruh. The Tao of Steve Martin, bruh.Extra thirsty douche lawyers, bruh. Edgy, bruh. Yeah buddy. I feel you. The Boys don't care, but The Boys do cry.
Yeah you clearly have no idea what a hipster is. Jake can certainly slip into edgelordism at times but in no way is he (and certainly not Dan) a hipster. Now Gordon on the other hand…
Somebody got served up a steaming cup of reality. The Freak had nearly a dozen salaries, and zero ratings. Although that’s not fair. 20th in your target demo is a rating, it’s just an awful one. I’ll bet some iheart executive looked at the ratings, looked at the cost, looked at the current positions of the Ticket and the Fan and finally accepted the reality that TF was a poorly positioned, poorly programmed and poorly staffed radio station that showed no real sign of future improvement. C
Sorry to see the Freak guys out of a gig. Nothing to celebrate about people being out of work. I wonder where the radio cockroaches, B & S, will turn up next?
Been out of town lately. Thanks for not getting too out of hand (finger did hover over the delete switch a few times), and special thanks to Peter Welpton.
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I'm glad to see The Dumb Zone doing well, creeping up on 6,000 subscribers. I'm not one of them, but these gents are talented broadcasters and I was a fan of Jake on The Ticket. Back and forth on Dan, but he was one of those guys that stations like The Ticket need, a guy like Corby, who is something of a lightning rod. He deserved and deserves his success.
I see there is continued speculation that these guys are going to end up either at the Freak or some other station or media outlet.
Despite their talent and potential to be media assets, I'm not sure about that.
If I were running a media outlet of any kind – hell, if I were an employer of any kind – and I stood back and took in the positions they have communicated over the past year respecting contracts, management, unionization, their own prior employer and its executives in particular, litigation, and NLRB complaints – would I hire them even if I admired their talent? Of course, a lot of that came from their famously obstreperous lawyers, but (1) the lads had to have signed on to that, and (2) those lawyers ain't going anywhere.
I'm NOT saying those positions were wrong or legally weak. I'm just trying to put myself in a potential employer's shoes.
I dunno, man. I read somewhere that they were investing in improved facilities and technology and exploring other ways to monetize their current situation.
I think that's a good idea.
Glad you brought this last sentence up, PM.
ReplyDeleteYesterday I stumbled across this new DZ promo and it led me to wonder about some basics of an ad-supported media outlet and how that does, or does not apply to a podcast. (spoiler: creating content is hard, effectively selling content is harder)
If you were a 24 hr a day/7 day a week radio station with a mid-five digit cume, what kind of revenue could you expect to generate? Now, what if you're the same station w/ a 4 digit cume?
How does that work for a 3x a week paywalled podcast with nowhere near 10K subscribers, even across all of its now several variations?
If I'm a business with ad dollars - what's the allure to spend money with DZ, other than maybe you just like the podcast and want to support their effort? Is it just really inexpensive? What's the CPM look like? Are you local? National? What's the demo? Typically the most financially successfull podcasts are part of networks that aggragate agency buys of media spend.
There simply aren't that many podcasts making the kind of bank I think DZ desire doing it solo and it really makes me begin to wonder about the back story of how they got to this point. It simply reads like this is the result of other outcomes not panning out as expected and having to pivot to a model they'd really not thought through.
If the point is to get businesses to give them ad dollars I'm really unclear how successful it is in that message.
It's not/won't be. They must grow subs annually by X in order to maintain Y income vis a vis rising costs and all the rest. That and/or increase sub fees and/or create a sub tier system. The latter entails exclusive content/perks, which also means more work. A big issue that I'd like to think they're working on is a longer reach. 6-ishK subs holding steady for these months is a job well done. However, if they've hit the local market ceiling, that doesn't bode well for the mid or long run. If in, say, 6-8 months from now they're not in the 8-10K range, they'll most likely have to go about things differently (assuming that's not already happening as I type this).
DeleteGoing to be interesting from a purely business POV to see how it all shakes out. They could set a precedence, be a model of sorts for others who wish to break out from the traditional path. Or. They could end up as a cautionary tale. Too early to say, either way. Frankly, TDZ as a whole and D/J/B individually aren't my cup of tea. But I'm pro do your own thing, forge your own path. So godspeed to them.
You genuinely have no idea what you are talking about
DeleteThe largest Patreon pod (Matt and Shane) have basically 3 tiers. If Books Could Kill has 2 real tiers. Chapo Trap House has 2 tiers, but they really are the same thing. Basement Yard has 3 tiers, but really just 2 (extra epi.) True Anon has 3 tiers, 1 with discord only 1 with pod but only 2 real ones.
Some of those make you go up a tier to get an episode early, or get access to a discord or give specific feedback/vote on topics. Which is minimal extra work on the team.
Most of the big pods also get ad $$ outside of Patreon, but you get an ad free version if you subscribe. also, minimal work.
6k subs with growth YTD is a positive. Adding in ad sales is a positive. They don't "have" to make a change if they are netting ~$465k / year from Patreon at 6k subs. that's without a major ad push. that's without doing events outside of pods until recently. that's with limited live video streams (no ads on those yet.)
Highly doubt they end up as a cautionary tale at this point. They have the runway financially to do it for a while, find what works - and there are plenty of others out there making it work - and keep pressing on.
They do have costs, but the costs are not real ones. They already pay Blake. They have the video guy. They could easily turn the Den into a studio if they wanted to for not a ton of money.
They are fine now and will continue to be fine moving forward with their current business model.
That is all good insight, but I remain curious just about this push to attract advertisers. I don't see the draw for a business, local or otherwise, to spend meaningful ad-dollars on such a limited audience. Unless it's altruistic, or just wickedly cheap.
DeleteSure, a $500 spend means a lot more to TDZ than it does a commerical radio station, but to make that ad up into something of value you have to sell a lot of those and then how does that affect the paid subscriber's interest now that there are that many ads?
Not making a value judgment on TDZ on the whole, just curious about the 5 minute promo they posted singularly designed to get businesses to give them ad dollars and how realistic it is for them to expect a real revenue stream from it.
companies are spending more money on worse product (podcasts) every single day out there. as long as they have their #s/analytics, which they do, they will be fine on this front.
Deletetypically the way this works is if you are a patron, you have an ad free version of the pod that plays. maybe not 100% ad free, but pretty close to it. the way i've seen it done is either they cut all the ads out via ad breaks for the patrons or you have the live reads in it, but the actual ads that are dropped in are cut out. LOTS of pods out there do this, with way fewer subs than TDZ.
i would fully expect it to be a very real revenue stream for them. they are unique in that they have a local following that should be much easier to monetize (locally) than someone who starts up a podcast that is more national/topic driven.
smaller pods than TDZ with fewer followers on social are doing just fine with the same model of patron/free epis/live streams/ad revenue.
You didn’t mention the 690 sit ins. Which doesn’t seem like much but they have one basically 4 days a week. Which is an additional 143k a year.
DeleteThey also have a steady stream of listeners sending them $ via Venmo just as a means of support. These payments as well as the $690 payments avoid the Patreon cut, to (steel-toed) boot.
DeleteGood info, Baron, but the pods you speak of have a broad, national audience which affords them far more growth potential vis-a-vis ad rev. That was my whole point. I specifically stated they're doing very well right now. The focal point being "right now." That's not to say they won't continue to do well, i.e., continue to grow. But there has to be a plan in place to do so. As well, reliance on an audience's generousity and current disposable income (talking Venmo and other additional donos here) is not something you can, ahem, bank on. So, while you provide some very good info, I fail to see how I genuinely don't know what I'm talking about. Such language most always is used when oneself either doesn't have all the facts or when one has had one's buttons pushed (i.e., emotionally charged). How I could've pushed any button/s, I've no idea. Then again, there is a touchiness to anything pertaining to Dan and Jake (either side of the fence) that at this point appears pathalogical. As a related aside: I never claimed to be an expert or anything else in the matter.
DeleteBaron, you seem to have a good handle on the basics of how Patreon works, but you and D1 and Listener also are tossing out there means of revenue that are derived from fickle, unstable sources. To figure in the $690 sit ins, Venmo, and the likes into projected earnings for even 6 months out is risible. And Baron, you make many assumptions that appear based on your desired outcome rather than meaningful, projectible data/data trends. I do think Franklin poses some good questions that can only be answered down the road. I also agree with them that this subject matter is highly charged to the point where honest dialogue is hard to come by. See below the comments of We Got Receipts and Cloud. You scratch your head and think, "Why? To what end?" To me all of this falls under the aegis of interesting local media talk and speculation. Which, I find interesting. Seems like others do, as well. Yet for some, it's a bloodsport of sorts. I just don't get it. To end on a positive, I do think Baron, Franklin, and Radio Knob all made good points/asked good questions.
DeleteBlake mentioned today that the 690 sit ins were booked up until August. Kinda seems like a reliable income stream to me.
Deletehttps://www.dallasnews.com/arts-entertainment/movies/2024/04/20/stardom-collides-with-tragedy-in-bastards-of-soul-doc-at-dallas-film-festival/
ReplyDeleteI am going to try an make this.
ET P1
Yeah that Dude Perfect doc is gonna be lit!
ReplyDeleteNot funny. On any level, douche bag.
DeleteThey’re out of you.
DeleteDo you have any original material, or merely a regugitated bag?
Deleteplease don’t say yo
DeleteI do what I want, yo.
DeleteThis might be a first, but I highly recommend you check out a comment on the reddit page that offers up a nicely constructed historical diagram of TT/FAN/TF ratings. The data is taken from Peter's (kind) offerings, and the commenter's analysis is sober, even-handed. The data strongly suggest that the penultimate comment on the previous thread by Danica appears to be onto something. Namely, that there has been a subtle and now not so subtle shift in public taste with respect to sports and guy talk that's been taking place over the past few years. The data shows the shift beginning right around TT's historical (one might say outlandish or even suspicious) ratings run. I recall a commenter just prior to said run that kept insisting change not only to the landscape was coming but also to TT in particular as it adapts to a reversion to the older (honestly, pre-Ticket, since TT pretty much started the then new model) way of sports talk radio. If memory serves, they claimed we would soon be hearing a more sports centric presentation across the board. This person was roundly lambasted. Perhaps they were more correct than not after all? Perhaps they were a couple of years ahead of the game? This next book will tell us much of what we need to know. Interesting times around the DFW radioscape, for certain.
ReplyDeletewhile I agree it there is an advantage to seeing the data in a visual format (and I appreciate that person's effort into creating them), I do think there's a bit of a problem to viewing data over that amount of time due to the shifts in the panel over that same period of time. It's kinda like looking at just the records of a NFL team over a long period of seasons, without also having the context of schedules, conference opponents, etc.
DeleteBut, I also think there's a value in either reminding both - those long time reddit ratings post readers or educating those recently newly interested - that pre-2023, the Ticket regularly found itself in rating ranks that were not #1 - either over all or even their favorite daypart of days gone by.
The reality is not being #1 is a place the Ticket waded in for vast stretches of its existence and it thrived just fine, what's different is that TF typically also lagged behind it. Currently their strong stretch of "slow but steady" consistency has paid off and we'll see how that pans out over time. And ulitmately, it will shift again, as it always does and will.
As for sports vs guy talk - I don't think anything related to the above is about shift in general market content preference trends as much as it is about shifts in measurment.
Peter, thanks so much for the insight. Great to hear someone who's actually inside the game give their perspective.
Delete“Inside the game” = makes $50 to host a 2-hour show once a week
DeleteYou're awful. Is this your way of getting back at those who bullied you as a youth? Or were you and still are the bully? Sad little clown, this one. Go get your shinebox, little man.
DeleteCan we talk about Hispanics? More and more they are making up the dfw sportsfan in everybody's world. They seem to choose the Fan. In fact a couple of my friends in this demo seem barely aware the Ticket even exists.
DeleteShow me data and I’ll tell you a story.
ReplyDeleteAlso “hangers”.
There were times I would listen to other sports stations because there would be a big sports story & the Musers couldn’t talk about it for 3 straight segments because they had to do Fake Tiger or the Hardline had to do E-News because they were sponsored. I still think that lack of flexibility is a flaw.
ReplyDeleteAlways good to check in on sentiment a year ago when talking about the contextual background of TDZ success: This from August of last year
ReplyDeleteC minusAugust 22, 2023 at 9:41 PM
Why do you think that? By my estimation TDZ blinked, there’s absolutely nothing in these recaps about the NLRB angle. And most if not all of their response was “NLTB preempts federal judge, you can’t do shit Sholer”. Now it looks like TDZ is playing from a weak position. Jake’s non compete is clear that they’re in violation, they clearly converted Cumulus assets (like the Twitter account, etc) to their use, and I know I’ve heard them use the dumb zone when they were the hang zone, so that’s definitely cumulus IP.
I’m not sure why Cumulus would, or would need to give up much to reach a settlement. And I’d want the financial pain for TDZ to send a warning to others thinking about breaking a non compete. Basically “we’ll come after you, cost you plenty and extend your non compete if you think about crossing the cloud”. I think Cumulus’s lawyers play hard ball here,
Just wait until Dan and Jake have to pay all of Cumulus’ lawyer fees AND have to forfeit all of the money they’ve made so far!
ReplyDelete2020
ReplyDeleteDespite me really liking Bob, I have to agree. The 3-7 line up is a "trying to put a square peg in a round hole" to use Ticket vernacular. It doesn't work and it's not Bob's fault. Along those lines, 12-3 bores me, too. I find myself listening to more Podcasts and less of that time slot. It used to be my absolute favorite. Now both 12-3 and 3-7 are both diluted (3-7 was always horrible to me anyway) and I've lost interest almost completely.
I feel like no one remembers how criticized the Dan and Jake show was originally lol
Both early D&J and Bob + Corby + Danny HL got a ton of shade from Ticket adjacent internet. The pandy killing off sports for awhile sure didn’t help from a content perspective
DeleteNice rejoinder CJK5H and KTCK & DZ Enjoyer. The pee drinkers have no idea how to take off the blinders. Poor little babies.
DeleteIn other news today.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/23/labor-department-issues-rule-to-crack-down-on-bad-retirement-savings-advice.html?__source=iosappshare%7Ccom.google.Gmail.ShareExtension
Does any of this sound familiar if you listen to advertising of you favorite Ticket advisor?
"The Labor Department is trying to rein in bad actors relative to two big areas of advice: rollovers from 401(k) plans to individual retirement accounts and purchases of insurance products like annuities, according to retirement and legal experts.
The Council of Economic Advisers estimates Americans lose up to $5 billion a year due to conflicts of interest relative to one insurance product, an indexed annuity."
Next thing you’re going to tell me is the FDA is gonna crack down on natural biologics….
Delete#dontbuyfromTheTicketadvertisers
Thank you for your service, Trajan Troll, and all that you do to your body. WUT? WUT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!? YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT GENOSTIM AND VIGOR FIT ARE SNAKE OIL????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! NEXT YOU'RE GONNA SAY SANTE CENTER IS NOT A HEALING ENVIRONMENT!!!!!!
DeleteWORD
DeleteDFW has always been a city for transplants, however, it was much more organic in the past. Now, we have hoards of people moving in with no personal or professional network that they're attached to so the Ticket won't be spread to them by word of mouth (not to mention remote workers). Without active advertising, the Ticket will be diluted and people will look for sports and find the Fan.
ReplyDeleteThat is an awesome comment decurro. Very good points. I would bet you a 30% bonus from an annuity that you have nailed the macro view on this.
DeleteSince Dan and Jake left the station, I still listen to the Musers but not as religiously as I once did. Catch some Muse in the News and the 9am hour with Gordo is still worth listening to. But after that, I just tune out for the day.
ReplyDeleteI have tried giving the Dumb Zone show a listen but it is not drawing me in despite me being a huge Jake and It's Just Banter fan. There is just something different about the chemistry with Dan, Jake and Blake outside the nurturing confines of the little Ticket that I can't place my finger on but it is different enough for me to not want to pay for their content.
I was never a big fan of Sturm joining the Hardline to begin with but that ship has long since sailed and clearly I am in the minority since the HL is killing it in the ratings.
Overall, I miss the good ol' days of the station. My hatred for Jeff Catlin for enabling this clustereff of a mess is beyond words. It should have been The Musers, Donnie/Mike Sirois, BaD Radio with Dan, Jake and Bob and then the Hardline with Corby, Danny and Dave Lane. Keep Sean Bass, Mino, Monty, Detty and so forth as producers and to add content when needed. Instead we have this existing midday lineup that is not doing anything for me and the current ratings represent that it is not doing much for anyone else either.
I feel your pain TK, but the hate thrown Cat's way is miguided. Vat had nothing to do with anyone leaving. He has nothing to do with salaries and (ultimately) contract negotiinations. That falls to Atlanta. He works with what he is given and with whom (again, ultimately via Atlanta) that is (at times put) before him. I know that's not the "narrative" many of you want to hear, but it is reality. Alas, forums such as this value emotion over truth.
DeleteCat gets hate bc he personally dumped a mention of Dan/Jake to keep their name from being spoken on air
DeleteHow do you know that to be genuinely the case? Did Cat say this? Did someone on-air say this? If so, where might we listen? URL? People make so many claims as fact here and elsewhere that don't hold. Does this?
DeleteSpeaking of the NLRB, noncompetes are donezo
ReplyDeleteCare to offer evidence?
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Deletehttps://x.com/BharatRamamurti/status/1782840622254063895
Delete@ Danger Boy https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/04/ftc-announces-rule-banning-noncompetes
DeleteVarious news reports reference some kind of appeal or lawsuit from various business interests. So likely this gets tied up in the courts for some time
Thanks, KTCK & DZ Enjoyer. Interesting stuff. Let's hope it actually comes into play. Anyone check out Danny on the last DZ YT offering? Man. Danny's song was something else. DIRECT shot at Cat. Direct shot at TT. Pulled the curtain back on a bit of Ticket function sexcapades. Didn't really spare TF either. Made it pretty clear without being explicit that TDB and TF might not be long for this world. He does dig working with Sirois and KT. Says they're better to work with than anyone he ever worked with at either TT or TF (hello, Rhyner). By the end of it I got the sense TDB is looking to go the way of TDZ. Betcha dollars to deeznutz that TDB becomes the 1st pod to come aboard TDZ bus. From there I bet more follow. I'm thinking Donnie. His name was mentioned by the way. Have to say the whole thing had an odd vibe to it. But. This format totally suits Dan. He gets to 'be on' SNL or the more edgy equivalent that he plays the role of principal writer and focal point of every segment. Smallest of sample size I admit, but very little sports is involved. I'm not sure if any of them come off as likeable tbh and like I said it has an odd or uncomfortable vibe to it, but all the same there's something sorta compelling about it too. I guess the thing that stood out to me that I thought would be different, mostly because of Jake, is the lack of depth on any level. I wanted to hear the goofy and the bawdy, but I also wanted to hear something of substance that didn't have to do with their at this point who gives a f anymore legal stuff. The closest thing was Dan talking about Steve Martin's thoughts on his own childhood. The whole thing of 'secretly' recording Jake trying to convince Blake to wear lingerie was just stupid. Plus I thought these guys were progressive. That ain't.
DeleteI can totally see why a certain segment of The Ticket inclined population glom onto it. It just isn't for me.
I watched it yesterday. Felt like a bunch of dudes in varying degrees of middle age playing out a hipster cool daddy scene from a knock off of an already dated and now thought to be crap Tarantino flick. The only thing missing and what would've brought it somewhat into these here the 20's would've been if one of them was wearing a full on Buc-ee's furby pj kit. That would've been the chef's kiss gilded lily of a cherry on top of the thing. If only. Bubble Living is the best living. Specially if it's in luxury custom built homes in the leafy burbs of the 817.
DeleteI am waiting for all the legal scholars to tell me that the noncompete ruling from the NLRB today doesn't have a chance to stand up in court. Perhaps the Cumulus legal team can file the appeal on behalf of all corporate America. I am sure that would be a well vetted legal strategy.
ReplyDeleteDo you understand the difference, the marked difference, between the case between Cumulus and Dan/Jake and a case such as this? Obviously not. Please go elsewhere for your puerile shenanigans. I suggest reddit. There you'll find a horde of third rate minds. Enjoy.
DeleteI don’t know about “doesn’t have a chance” but a Dallas tax firm “Ryan” has already filed suit in the federal court in Dallas. It’s been assigned to a Trump appointed judge, and any appeals go to the 5th circuit which is EXTREMELY conservative. It might succeed, or Ryan could have a TRO in short order. I’ll admit, I don’t have enough knowledge of FTC rule making authority and the legality of executive branch delegation of authority to the FTC absent legislative guidance, but as usual, the lawyers will make their money no matter who ends up being right.
ReplyDeleteC
I don't want to get political/legal here, but I do know a bit about this stuff. Some random thoughts:
ReplyDelete(1) The Federal Trade Commission has stolen a march on the NLRB in issuing this rule knocking out employment noncompetes. Both agencies have been accused of excessive politicization in recent years and there have been calls for the abolition for one or both of them. There is proposed legislation before Congress now that would really reign in the NLRB. Neither likely to vanish soon, but the FTC is a better candidate for sunsetting than the NLRB.
(2) I don't know whether the lawsuit -- there will probably be more than one -- seeking to enjoin or invalidate this rule will be successful. As I wrote when the Dumb Zone litigation began and it was clear that D+J's counsel was going for this result, to eliminate noncompetes by federal fiat would be a very significant shift in the balance of authority between the states -- which have had more-or-less exclusive jurisdiction over contract law, with exceptions of (you can't discriminate against certain groups) -- and the federal government. In a word, it would be a real jolt to the concept of federalism.
But federal authority has been creeping ever forward for some time, and it's not beyond imagining that the court challenges will fail. The FTC is supposed to protect competition generally, and so it is at least arguable that this falls within its bailiwick. In the past, FTC power has been exercised to examine mergers of a certain size (pursuant to the Hart-Scott-Rodino process), and corporate antitrust -- not restrictions on individual competition. My guess? Whoo -- 55-45 in favor of injunction (likely resulting in invalidation), but I'm not putting much dough on it either way.
(3) In recent years, the U.S. Supreme Court has reigned in some regulatory programs as a result of challenges to the "Chevron doctrine" referring to a 1984 case in which courts were required to give broad deference to agency decisionmaking. But this doctrine has been under attack recently and some recent decisions have invalidated agency rules. A major case that could spell a big change in deference to agencies was argued in January of this year, relating to the imposition of certain fees for commercial fishermen.
(4) If the commercial interests challenging the new rule fail in court, the fight will likely go to Congress, where I would be more confident that the FTC will get spanked and the rule reversed. Business is angry enough, it might go to Congress first (and you can bet the pols will have something to say about this even before the courts rule). The overall lesson -- this won't get resolved for quite some time.
(5) This is one of those issues that will depend in part on the outcome of the election, both Presidential and Congress. Who appoints federal judges is (my opinion) the most important domestic issue in federal elections, because those appointments affect policy for years to come.
Meet the new talent, same as the old talent. If you've spent any time listening over the past few months it's not to difficult to guess who's coming and who's going. Someone already inadvertantly or got lucky and spilled the beans on where some of the goers are going.
ReplyDeleteFight me.
Go on?
DeleteMy guess, Zulu, is that the comment is referring to TF, Sybil and Pugs and Co.'s frequent to the point they seem like full-timers fill ins on TF, TDB and Danny's/Sirois's continued on-air digs at both iHeart and not so subtle hints that their time might be short, Danny's pointed song and words on TDZ 4/20 YT episode, and that said song and words indicate the writing's on the wall where TDB is heading (canned from TF, Sybil/Pugs taking their place, and hopping aboard TDZ pod train). How's that for a run on sentence! My apologies. But I think that's the gist of the comment.
DeleteThanks. Wasn’t sure what station was being referenced.
DeleteYou bet.
DeleteI forgot to put in the reminder re anonymous posts being stricken, so 502 gets a pass.
ReplyDeleteThe DZ has its moments, but it has become evident there was Zero Plan. & they are still a very niche Pod - that niche being Ticket listeners. Or I guess they're striving to be the dallas.tv. but instead of the 30sec clips its 2.5hrs. Solid.
ReplyDeleteUnless some deep pockets and a vision step in, TDZ won't be around in 2 years, if that. It's not compelling enough. They neither discuss nor do anything that isn't already being discussed or done but better and in a national sense. BookBook is correct: there's is a niche audience, Ticket listeners. I wish them all the best, but if my two months subbing (Feb and Mar '24) and this latest YouTube offering are indicative of their bag, sadly the thing doesn't have legs. An earlier comment from one ronzo at least in part put a fine point on their chief issue. That is, there's an off putting aging hipster mentality to it. Yeah, Jake isn't yet 40, but no matter, the vibe is strong. I think a big first step they can take would be to cease and desist on everything Ticket and Ticket adjacent. They have to move past it if they're going to actually grow past a certain and finite number of Ticket listeners. You want to get Sirois on, fine. Talk F1, festivals, and edibles. Enough direct, sideways, and other shots at Cat or The Ticket. Enough with your lawyers. My word, Kingston is in their latest skit on YouTube. It's small time, local yokel potatoes. Find a direction that's truly yours. As of now they're nowhere near that.
DeleteI've given them a shot but come to determine they're just too cool and smart for me. Somehow without actually being cool or smart.
DeleteThere is absolutely nothing “hipster” about Dan and/or Jake or their presentation
ReplyDeleteThat's your opinion. Others disagree.
DeleteOnly a suburbanite hipster would think they aren't hipster wannabes. But they are. Make no mistake about it, they are. 420 Day, bruh. Pot, bruh. The Tao of Steve Martin, bruh.Extra thirsty douche lawyers, bruh. Edgy, bruh. Yeah buddy. I feel you. The Boys don't care, but The Boys do cry.
DeleteYeah you clearly have no idea what a hipster is. Jake can certainly slip into edgelordism at times but in no way is he (and certainly not Dan) a hipster. Now Gordon on the other hand…
DeleteSorry, chum, jr high debate team tactics won't work here. Try better. Be better. Be smarter. Your turn, the clock is running.
DeleteSorry to go above your head. I will keep it to pre-K from here on out
Delete420 69 hitler Kanye nba twitter drama har har
ReplyDeleteA lot of folks owe me an apology.
ReplyDeleteChrist demands it of you.
You’ll get nothing and like it. By the way…who are you?
DeletePoor the Legend
DeleteThe Freak is dead.
ReplyDeletehttps://x.com/richiewhitt/status/1783896930818326730?s=42&t=iDv2OLJEBEEOiVqQG36GjQ
Deleteohno, wha happennnnnnnn
ReplyDeleteBummed about the Freak. Was a P1, but enjoyed having options, especially during 10-3.
ReplyDeleteDidn't mean to post Anon.
DeleteSomebody got served up a steaming cup of reality. The Freak had nearly a dozen salaries, and zero ratings.
ReplyDeleteAlthough that’s not fair. 20th in your target demo is a rating, it’s just an awful one.
I’ll bet some iheart executive looked at the ratings, looked at the cost, looked at the current positions of the Ticket and the Fan and finally accepted the reality that TF was a poorly positioned, poorly programmed and poorly staffed radio station that showed no real sign of future improvement.
C
Condolences to the Freak family.....But.....Ham has a golden troll opportunity for some return music cuts this afternoon. Maybe some Missy Elliott??
ReplyDeleteSorry to see the Freak guys out of a gig. Nothing to celebrate about people being out of work. I wonder where the radio cockroaches, B & S, will turn up next?
ReplyDeleteSorrowful new ginger and comment
ReplyDelete